🎙️Beyond the Noise: Episode 4

BEYOND THE NOISE FROM ARROWHEALTH
Podcast Transcript: The Hurt Beneath the High: Facing the real reason we keep going back
Featuring: Bec (Host), Josh (Co-host), and Ruben (Guest)
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TOBY VO: This is beyond the noise from Arrow Health. Real voices, raw stories, and the truth about addiction, recovery and life.

BEC: Today, Josh and I are here with Ruben. Ruben is someone we’ve known for a very long time. So welcome, Ruben.

RUBEN: Thanks for having me.

BEC: Today we want to talk about, I guess, your journey into addiction and your resilience in trying and continuing to try even when you have setbacks. A lot of people think that their kids or themselves, they go to rehab and it’s a magic bullet and everything’s gonna be great. And most of the time, that’s not the case. And I think your journey is such an interesting one because we’ve witnessed so much of your pain and so much of your growth at the same time. So I’m really looking forward to chatting with you today.

RUBEN: Thanks for having me. It definitely hasn’t been a straight path. It’s been ups and downs. Where do I start? Just from.

BEC: Where did it. Where did it start? Where did it start? Like, what happened? When did you pick up?

RUBEN: When did I. I picked up at probably 12 or 13.

BEC: Yep.

RUBEN: But for me, like, I was thinking about on the train down here. Like, I remember going to, like, prep and. And I used to just, like, have this. I was like, a very anxious and, like, scared kid. And I used to just chew on the sleeve of my hoodie. And like, I used to just, like, all day I’d just be chewing on it, like, to the point where it’d be, like, bitten off. So I think, like, from very early on, like, I was just had a lot of anxiety, a lot of fear. I never knew that sort of at the time. It’s only now looking back. But, yeah, I started smoking pot. That would have been the first thing. And pretty much from the start, it was to numb. You know, it wasn’t very. It was never really social. Like, I had a couple of mates that I’d smoke pot with. But from the very start, it was. It was like, okay, this makes me feel better, so I’m gonna keep doing this.

BEC: And you remember that. You remember, like, that. That was numbing even then.

RUBEN: Like, yeah, I just felt better.

BEC: And it got rid of that anxiety, which I assume continued on into your teenage years.

RUBEN: Absolutely. Yeah.

BEC: And.

RUBEN: But when I was younger, I had a lot of anger as well. And I noticed, like, if I was stoned, I just, like, yeah, I wasn’t angry. I could just deal with stuff better. But, like, pretty much from the start, it was like, I love this and I’m gonna, like, smoke it before school. And I’ll go, like, you know, and that’s sort of what I focused on, was just smoking pot. That’s where it started anyway. Yeah.

BEC: And did at the time. Did you know your parent, your mum, did she know?

RUBEN: Yeah, Mum. Mum definitely knew. Yeah. And it was sort of this, like, it was. I guess it was hard for her. I guess she didn’t really know what to do and. Yeah, like, she didn’t really know what to do. Like, she. She couldn’t stop me. I was gonna do it anyway. And it sort of got to the point where I ended up living, moving into my best mate’s place who’s. We could sort of just do what we wanted there, like smoke bongs in the lounge room, whatever. And I thought it was like. I thought, this is. This is where it’s at.

BEC: Yeah. How good was things like that? Like, I relate to that, like. Yeah, the friend who had no rules. Like, you just did what you wanted.

RUBEN: I could do what I want and, you know, I could go missing for the whole weekend or during the week. And it was just like. It was sort of the thing where it’s like, no news is good news, you know, if I was gone. And like, it was like, no news is good news. And I guess Mum sort of knew what I was getting up to, but didn’t really know what to do or didn’t know how to sort of manage it. But, yeah, it progressed pretty quick.

BEC: So how old were you when you moved into your mate’s house?

RUBEN: From about 14, 15, 16. I was there a fair bit. Yeah. Yeah. And by 15, 16, it was, yeah, like pills and all that sort of stuff. And then pretty quickly it was like meth on the weekends and that’s when it really got out of control.

BEC: And so how did you go from smoking weed, you know, which brings you down to then going, yep, meth. That’s what I’m picking up next.

RUBEN: Well, it started, like, going out and I remember I was going through my brother’s room looking for, like, pot and stuff, and I found, like these MD caps and pills and stuff and I just took them. And then I was at my mate’s house and we just like, had them, like, on a. I don’t know, it was like a weeknight and were just like, this is. This is mad. And were just like. And then the way I sort of see it now is, like, there was like these lines and, like, I didn’t realise, but at the time I was just, like, crossing them until it just became normal. But yeah. Like I remember, like I’d see people out or like at parties and stuff and they’d be in the back room smoking pipes or like doing juice and stuff. And I was like, I’m never gonna do that. It’s disgusting. I didn’t like the way people were acting and it sort of had this like stigma to it. I was like, I’m never gonna do that.

BEC: Yeah.

RUBEN: And then just one decision. I’m like, I’m hanging off a pipe. And then it was like this normal now. But it was sort of. It started off as like, I’ll keep it kind of dark because there was a lot of other friends that sort of still had that mindset. So it was like I was sort of like hiding it here and there.

BEC: So this is where the addiction’s really kicked in now because you’re hiding stuff.

RUBEN: Yeah, yeah. And from. I guess I was always sort of hiding stuff. Like, even with smoking pot, it was the same mindset sort of thing. I was still always hiding it. But even at school, like I got caught at school with a pot. Like it. When I think about, like I sort of think like my using became problematic when I started using ice, but it was problematic from the start, I’d say, like it interfered with like one going to school and like my relationships with people. I only really wanted to hang around people that would sort of allow me to do that sort of stuff.

BEC: Yeah.

RUBEN: But yeah, it was definitely more just to like feel like. Like just to numb a lot of stuff. At the time I didn’t even realise sort of what it was, I don’t think. But I just knew that this is what made me feel better. And like I found, I guess I found some sort of connection and belonging in people that use drugs as well.

BEC: Yeah, yeah. So, so does it really take off? Like you start using meth and things really take off. Like it gets, it just gets worse.

RUBEN: Yeah, absolutely.

BEC: Yeah, yeah.

RUBEN: And it got worse in the way that like mental health was. Like, I was very quick, like into like psychosis psych wards. Like I’ve lost count how many times I’ve been in a psych war. And it was just like a very, like, for me it’s like a reckless thing, a self destructive thing. And yeah, like, it always ended badly and like I got to the point where I didn’t want to be around anyone. Like, I just, if I had drugs, I just like, I’d sit in a room just by myself, just using.

BEC: Yeah. And I’ve always known you to like when you use like there’s no, like we’re not easing into things where like we’re going all out like, you know. And has that always been the way like. Or did that progressively get worse, say every time, you know, you got went to treatment and relapsed or.

RUBEN: I think like before I ever went into treatment or anything like that, I think definitely like I still use like I’d be sort of like the one that wants to keep going, all that sort of stuff and like I’d, I have to use it all the time. No matter what it was. Whether it started off with like pot and I like, I’d smoke that all the time. Then whatever it was, I just had to have as much as I could. But yeah, with meth was definitely just like a, all drugs. But meth is probably the most self destructive for me. It was just like I want to like just destruct myself as much as I can and just take myself as far away from reality. But. And then like GHB and all that sort of stuff, it got to the point where it’s like the only time I really escaped my own head and my stuff was like when I’m pretty much unconscious or like I’m that out of it that it’s dangerous. And yeah, so it did become very dangerous for me.

BEC: When did you first decide you were going to go to rehab?

RUBEN: I don’t think I decided. Yeah.

BEC: How did that happen? How did that come about?

RUBEN: I kept going into hospital for stuff. And then what? My mum, her like a family friend was like, I think he needs to go to rehab. Cause I was always told I was an addict. I was like, you’re a drug addict. I’m like, yeah, I’m a drug addict. Like I was sort of like, that’s all right. I didn’t really know anything different. But what got me was I was eating, I got a bunch of opiates and when I started using them like my family were like, oh, we need to get him into rehab. I think I was 19 when I first went into rehab.

BEC: Yeah, okay.

RUBEN: Yeah. And yeah, I didn’t know. I thought I was going in there just to give up some drugs and come out and be able to like still drink and do like the drugs I didn’t think were that harmful.

BEC: Yeah, but how long did you stay for? How long was that first?

RUBEN: I think just 30 days. Yeah.

BEC: Okay.

RUBEN: Yeah.

BEC: So. So you come out and you’re in the mindset of like, oh yeah, I’m just not Going to use, like, opiates or, you know.

RUBEN: Yeah. I’m not going to use meth. I’ll just use, like, coke, because that’s socially acceptable sort of thing. Well, it was in sort of the people I was around.

BEC: Yeah. Yeah.

RUBEN: And I still sort of had some, like, good friends that could just go out on the weekends and party. And then it’s like they sort of were catching on that I was doing this. And eventually I lost all those people. They’re like, well, I don’t wanna be around that stuff. And then before I know it, like, the only people that really wanted to be around me are people that are using meth and stuff like that. And so then I was just like, well, yeah, I was sort of in. But rehab sort of planted a seed in my head. And I think that’s why I was like, I’d go back out and I did try to just use sort of manageably, and very quickly I was like, I can’t do it.

BEC: Yeah.

RUBEN: And then, like, I’d go back and then I got introduced, like, youth, like, programs, like, for housing. And, like, I just thought the drugs were the problem. Like, I thought if I give up drugs, then, like, and just get out of the area I’m in, then I’m gonna be okay.

BEC: Yeah.

RUBEN: But then, like, a lot of the time I’d give up drugs and I’d feel sort of, like, worse.

BEC: Yeah. So you’re feeling worse. And we always say this, don’t we, Josh, that when you go to rehab, like, we kind of ruin you using. Like, it’s ruined.

RUBEN: Yeah.

BEC: So did that happen from the first time you went to treatment? Like, it was ruined. Like, it was still. Like, there was just something in the back of your mind where you’re just like, oh, my God.

RUBEN: Yeah. Because whatever happened in using, whether it was like, my mental health was really bad or I had some sort of consequence of my behaviour due to, like, my drug use, it was like, well, I’ve been shown this other way now, so, like, I can’t blame people. It sort of breaks down the denial for me. Yeah. Which now, looking back, I’m sort of grateful for that stuff.

BEC: Yeah.

RUBEN: Like, I can appreciate it. But at the time, it was like, fuck. It sort of just made me feel even more guilty and more, like, have a bit more shame because it was like, what am I doing? So I’d go back and it’s been like, slow learning for me.

BEC: So how many times have you been to rehab now?

RUBEN: A lot.

BEC: How many?

RUBEN: I don’t know. I don’t know, probably 10, including detoxes and stuff like that.

BEC: And so people, to me, I feel like that’s really normal. Okay. I feel like it’s really normal. Would you agree?

RUBEN: Yeah.

JOSH: I think a lot of people, especially families, think that it’s just a one off thing. And although when you go into treatment you have this, I guess like a moment of clarity because you presented options outside of you using.

RUBEN: Yeah.

JOSH: But then you create this conflict because you still want to escape yourself and you still need tools to kind of get through all the emotions and stuff but you’re in conflict because you do have the option of using but you know that there’s another way where you can stay clean. So yeah, it’s not just a one off thing most of the time.

RUBEN: Right?

JOSH: Yeah.

BEC: And that’s what I think is really important for people to know. Even anyone going into treatment, you mightn’t get it the first time. And I suppose and we chatted about this the other day and I guess the point of this is something I think you’re discovering now is that it isn’t actually that like yes, the drugs are a problem, but they’re not the problem.

RUBEN: 100 yeah. Yeah. Oh like I wish it was that simple.

BEC: So do I. Imagine how easy our jobs would be. The drugs were just the problem. It would be so simple. But the trip, imagine do a detox, stick around for a few weeks and off you go.

RUBEN: Yeah, well like it’s sort of what I’ve been told. It’s like you want to find out why you’re using, take away the drugs and like you’ll find out why you use sort of thing. And that’s definitely the case for me. You know, I don’t need drugs to sort of like there’s a lot of other areas in my life that sort of I can act out on and like, sort of get myself into trouble or like the feelings, like to cope with my feelings, you know. And that’s been a journey and it’s like I’d sort of like learn things about myself and be like, oh, that doesn’t really apply. And then I’d have to like go out and keep doing the same things and I always get the same results and that I end up using again. So yeah, it’s been as like slow learning.

BEC: Is it discovering why you’re in pain, you know what that emotional pain is and discovering that and then you sort of, your eyes are opened and then you’re like shit, now I’ve got to work through this without drugs and get to the other side. And I suppose that’s really where you’re, you know, like after 10 or more times in rehab over, you know, eight or nine years, that’s where you’re at now.

RUBEN: Yeah, it’s. Yeah, it’s not so much about the drugs. I don’t necessarily. Yeah. Today, like, drugs, I’ve, like, I’m done with drugs, but it’s all the other behaviours and stuff that I need to work on that sort of trip me up. You know, relationships are a big one. Like, if a relationship goes to, like, breaks up, then it’s like, it brings up all this stuff from when I’m like. And it’s sort of. It’s misplaced emotions and feelings that I don’t. Haven’t dealt with properly. Yeah, stuff like that. And just a lot of. It’s like, belonging, like I take drugs away. It’s like, well, what do I do now? Yeah, and it’s like, it’s a bit of. And I think everyone goes through that.

BEC: Do you feel like, because that time is spent, there’s so much time using, scoring, all of that when you, like you’re in this space now where you clean and you’re on this journey, but it’s like, what do you do? Like, what. What, like, what do I do with my time? What do I do? Like, you know, and we always say have a routine, but sometimes. How do you feel a day out when you haven’t got. You haven’t been doing anything really?

RUBEN: Well. Yeah, when you. Like when I’m using, even when I’m. It’s the getting. Like I’m spending my time trying to get money to get on. And then when I’m using, it’s like, well, how can I maintain this? It’s just constantly, like it consumes every part of your life where. To the point where it becomes. That’s all it is. It’s like, because I got no time to do anything else and no one wants to be around you. Like, yeah, everyone, you know, and that’s all it sort of becomes. And. But I’m just like, lucky that there has been people that have, like, stood by me, you guys included. Like, even when I’ve fallen off, it’s like there’s people there. And I think that goes a long way, 100%. But, you know, it doesn’t matter how many people are around me with their hands out, willing to help me, you know, I have to do the work at the End of the day, like, I’m stuck with me, and it doesn’t matter how much support’s around me. If I’m not willing to put one foot in front of the other, then, like, it. You know, it’s. It’d be hard, you know.

BEC: Yeah. Well, and I think that is absolutely key to treatment, to getting recovery, because I suppose an example would be, you know, your most recent relapse. Like, we all knew it was happening.

RUBEN: Yeah.

BEC: And you. You go missing. Yeah. And it’s, you know, it’s like we’ve laughed about the little things. Like, you know, next thing, you know, Facebook marketplace, and you’re selling everything. And we know, yeah, he’s not great. He’s not good. And we’re there and we’re saying, come, you know, come to us. Come, you know, like, you know, do you want us to come get you? What do you want us to do? But you’re just away now. Like, you’re doing it because. And we can’t help you until you say, yes, I want help. And I suppose from my perspective, and you being the same, you know, trying to support people, that’s really. It’s really hard, like, from our side of things. Cause you’re there, and we’re like. We’re right here. Like, we’re just right here. And. But you’re so in it. And then, you know, the shame and all that, it’s. It’s really hard to get people to take that step, because they have to be. They have to be ready.

RUBEN: Yeah.

JOSH: So in saying that, what’s the. What’s sort of the headspace that you’re at when your last relapse? Like, you knew that there were people there to support you. What was it that was stopping you from making that sort of step or what’s kind of delayed the process, to be honest.

RUBEN: It was, like, a lot of shame and guilt and, like, I’d have to face. Face, like, own my stuff, you know, because, like, even before I started using, I was in sort of a situation that, like, I was being dishonest around. Like, it all started, like, well before. Sort of picking up. Like, it could have been prevented, I think. And then when the opportunity, like, I had surgery and it was like, I’m using, but when I look back, it started, like, well before they’re. Like, I was in this relationship that was very codependent, and it sort of filled that thing that using had. And, like, there was a lot of guilt and shame, and I sort of had to put out this image. Like, I’M in recovery. But, you know, so when, like, I was in a position where, like, I was using, it was like I spent, like nearly two years or two years building, like, getting my own place, sort of, like, trying to sort of get stability. And like, the minute I use, like, it’s like the. The fridge is gone, the washing machine’s going, everything’s going.

JOSH: Yeah.

RUBEN: So there’s this part of me that’s like. Like I was. I sold everything in the house. Like, I had this puppy and I was even thinking about selling that.

BEC: This is how I knew. This is how I knew things.

RUBEN: So there’s a part of me that’s just, like, reckless. I don’t care and I’ll do what it takes to get on. But there’s also the other part of me that’s like guilt, shame. I’ve been shown this way and to. Yeah. Like, to, like, say to people I’m using again. It’s like, I’m so sick of that, you know, Like, I should know better by now. That’s sort of that headspace.

BEC: Just tired of it.

RUBEN: Yeah.

BEC: Did you. Do you think. Because like, we talked about how you’ve got to deal with the underlying stuff, like, that’s ultimately it, like, when you deal with the underlying stuff. So you got two years up, which was incredible. But if you look at it now, do you think by the time you relapsed, you’d worked so hard to grip onto that because you hadn’t worked on your stuff, so you were gripping onto two. You were gripping on to every moment of that. So then when you relapse, it’s like, oh. Like, just, you know, like, almost like it’s. It’s difficult to maintain your recovery when you haven’t done the work. So you. Ultimately, you’re in recovery, but recovery isn’t you. Like, you’re just doing it, you’re doing it, but it’s not you.

RUBEN: And like, the more I think about, if I’m completely honest, it’s like I was abstinent from drugs. I wasn’t necessarily actively in recovery. Yeah. It’s like I was saying, yeah, I’m like, on this amount of time clean, but, you know, I’m still engaged. Like, for me, it’s like gambling as well. Like, relate unhealthy relationships and that codependency stuff. It’s like, I can’t work on my stuff if I’m still engaged in this relationship that sort of, you know. So, like, I feel like I’m in more recovery now in this short amount of time than I was at times when I was like two years clean. Like maybe from the outside and like it would look like, you know, I got my stuff together but I wasn’t dealing with anything.

BEC: Yeah. And that’s where people would get really. Especially with their loved ones or, you know, whatever, but they would be really happy. Oh my God, it’s been a year, it’s been two years or whatever. But if they haven’t done that work, it’s inevitable that one day it’s all going to fall over.

RUBEN: Yeah.

BEC: Like if that whatever the issue is going to come up again.

RUBEN: Yeah.

BEC: You know, and that I think that’s really difficult to consider and I suppose anyone in that situation be really hard to think, oh yeah, I’m in recovery but I know there’s something wrong. So does that mean I’m going to relapse? I would say, yeah, probably.

RUBEN: Yeah.

JOSH: There’s multiple ways to avoid your problems.

RUBEN: Yeah.

JOSH: You know, so just because you’re not using doesn’t mean that you’re in recovery.

RUBEN: Right.

JOSH: So when did you, so you got into this relationship? When did you realise that it was probably you were being avoidant or you weren’t really doing your recovery during the relationship?

RUBEN: Probably from the start. Like when I look back. Yeah, it was probably from the start and like everyone around me was like, I don’t think like this, like they’re like, isn’t this a pattern for you like to just like fall in love and you know, think I’m falling in love, you know.

BEC: But what was it? What? Even if it was right at the beginning, what was it?

RUBEN: It felt good. Yeah, it was like, oh, this feels good, you know, I don’t feel alone. Feels nice to have someone, you know, and it. But like I say it feels good, but there was also a lot of stuff, like I had a lot of insecurities and it was very like enmeshed and stuff. So a lot of the time it was just anxiety. Like I just constantly anxiety. It was like, well if I lose this or if like I don’t get, you know, it was very need based. It wasn’t, it wasn’t healthy. And none of my relationships have been. I don’t know how to be in a relationship. Yeah, I don’t like, you know, I don’t. So it’s like that’s what it’s been over the years is like learning to navigate that stuff. And when I first went into rehab and was trying a recovery, like I didn’t think that getting in a relationship would be A problem. I didn’t think, like, gambling would be a problem. I didn’t think, like, all this. Others things that people said, oh, be careful, that would be a problem. But, yeah, it’s always sort of led me back to drugs.

BEC: Yeah.

RUBEN: Just. Yeah. Every time, pretty much.

BEC: And so what have you done differently this time? Like, that you think is gonna, like, set you on the right path? Like, how are you approaching things this time? Because you are. You’re so much more cautious and optimistic, but you’re not that, like, yeah, I’ve got this. You’re like. I feel like you’re really focused on doing the work.

RUBEN: Yeah.

BEC: So what. Do what for you is going to happen differently this time?

RUBEN: It’s hard. I don’t know. Like, yeah, like, one thing. I came in a lot more, like, willing to, like, try different things. And like, it’s also, like, I’m in no denial around, like, my other stuff. And I’m like. Like, I’ll get support around that stuff. I think, like, the last recovery, I don’t even want to look at my codependency and stuff like that. But now it’s like, it’s not so much about the drugs. It’s like, that’s a clear problem for me. I want to look at all the underlying stuff. And I think just having the. Because if I’m not willing to look at it, then, like, nothing’s gonna change. But.

BEC: And we’re just gonna keep doing this over and over again.

RUBEN: And just one, like, I think just being open and, like, willing to actually look at that stuff and take advice and stuff on from people. Because my thing was, like, I’d get in a relationship, the people around me, they’d be like, oh, like you’re doing again? I’m like, yeah, this time will be different. It’s like, it’s not going to be different because I’m still the same. So, yeah, I just want to try and really discover and. And sit with all that uncomfortable, like, feelings that I feel. Like. Like, I don’t have to change it, like, necessarily. Like, I think a big part of it is just feeling it and being okay with it. Like, it’s not gonna, you know, I’m not gonna. I don’t need to, like, sort of numb those feelings anymore.

BEC: Yeah.

RUBEN: I don’t think I ever used to give my chance to, like, see if it passes. Like they say all these feelings will pass. It’s like, well, like, whatever. I never gave myself the chance to let it pass. It’s like, I feel something. I’ll Use or I’ll do. And then it’s like. Yeah. So it’s very.

JOSH: It’s hard, isn’t it? Like, when we treat our feelings as fact.

RUBEN: Yeah.

JOSH: Like, we’re. When we feel stuff, we think that we’re gonna feel it forever.

RUBEN: Yeah.

JOSH: You know what I mean?

RUBEN: And act out on those feelings. It’s like.

BEC: Would you say it’s taken you, though, until now to be ready to sit with those feelings? Because if I go back to. I think it was your last. The last time that you came to us and you blew out when you arrived. Yeah. And I’ll never. It was. It’s always something me and Maz talk about, and we already had a really good relationship. And so that. And, you know, it was really like, oh, it was, what’s going on? Like, he’s not meant to do this here. Like a him of all people, you know, so. And I remember, you know, we argued, you and me, that admission. We argued so much. And then I told you that you were going to go to long term and all that. That’s how it was. And you. You didn’t want to do it, and were arguing and you went. And I know that we gave you all the same information that we’ve given you now, because I knew you just as well then as I know you now, and I know Josh did and everyone else did. And so it’s a matter of. So we keep repeating the same information to you and giving you that support. But you ultimately had to be ready. Like, you had to be ready to do the work.

RUBEN: And I think that’s a big thing. Like, I can into, like, intellectually, I can, like, know all this stuff or learn all these things, but it’s. It’s useless unless I’m going to put it into action. And I think it takes, like a. It sort of takes blind faith in a way. It’s like knowing all this stuff, it’s like, I’m just going to do it. Yeah. It’s because it’s like I don’t. I don’t know the results. It’s like, I don’t. So it’s like, I just have to, like, trust that the people around me that have done it before or, like, you know, they. They know what’s best, and it’s like, I’m just gonna do that. And I think the willingness comes from, like, pain. Like, I think, like, I had to be in enough pain. Like, I was in pain with my drug use, like I wanted. But that’s like, the other areas it’s like, okay, this is bringing me a lot of pain. It’s not working. So I think pain makes me willing.

BEC: I honestly believe that is a thing. And I say it all the time. I say, there’s some people that come into treatment when they’re young, and. And it doesn’t necessarily have to be young, but this is what we see. And they haven’t hit rock bottom yet. They haven’t hit it. And so we know that it’s not really gonna work. We give them a bit of a break in treatment, and then they go back out there and, you know, eventually they’re gonna use again. Cause it hasn’t. Life hasn’t really given it to them yet. And then on the other end of that, you’ve got people who are much older who have had so much pain that it’s too much. So it’s almost like there’s a recipe for. It sounds terrible, but just the right amount of pain for people to go, I need to do this now. And that’s almost like, what you came with this time. Like, okay, like, it hurts now. Yeah, like, keep doing this.

RUBEN: And I was pretty used to, like, burning my life to the ground, like, the relationship, all that sort of stuff, just going, like, yeah, I’d get a job, and like, that stuff was like, I was used to that. But there was, like, this deep pain where it’s like, I just. Like, I want this. Like, I need to really look at this, and I want it to stop. Because in the early days, I think it was just, like, I wanted the consequences to stop. And I’d go into, like, youth housing and stuff like that, pretty much just so I had somewhere to live. It was like, all right, I’ll go to a detox, and I’ll go stay. I’ve got somewhere to live. I didn’t really want to look at my stuff. I just wanted consequences to stop. Stop. But I think over time, like, eventually, like, there’s, like, I was in enough. Like, yeah, it’s. I think people have to be in enough pain. Well, that’s my experience, anyway, of doing the same thing over and over again.

BEC: It has to. It has to hurt. Yeah. And it’s almost. Yeah. Like, if someone tips over into too much pain, I see them as they just can’t do it. Like, it’s a lifelong thing. And if it’s not enough, they’re going to keep going like you did, until it hurts enough. And how does. How does the reoccurring relapse and going back into treatment, how do you reckon that impacts people around you, like those that you love? Yeah, I know. It’s a big one, isn’t it? Because ultimately you’ve got to do this for yourself. But I guess just in wanting to talk about how you think it impacts everyone around you know, that you’re going to treatment and then, you know, you come out, things might go okay, then you relapse.

RUBEN: I think it’s like the people around me, they sort of get some relief. Like, all right, he’s willing to go back to rehab. But, like, it’s this. Everyone’s very cautious. Like, you know, what are you gonna do differently? Like, you sort of that thing. And yeah, it’s really, like, nothing I say anymore really means much. It’s about sort of what I do. And, like, people don’t really listen to what I say. They’ll just watch me and see what I do.

BEC: Yeah.

RUBEN: So, yeah, like, the support I get is just like, do more, say less sort of thing. Because by now, like, I know how to manipulate people into thinking that I’m doing okay and sort of like, just, like, talk my way through without really sort of doing the work. But, yeah, it’s sort of more what I do. Not what I say or what I’m, like, thinking or how I’m, like, taking things in. It’s about, like, the action that I’m putting in.

BEC: And that’s a hard truth to swallow because most people in the world get taken on. Like, they can just say whatever and they’re believed. So. And it’s true, you know, addicts forever, they’re not believed. No one’s going to listen to you. Like, it’s all you’ve got. You’ve got to do the work. So it’s a hard pill to swallow that everyone around you is just waiting on you to, you know, to actually to legitimately do actions speak louder than words. It’s.

RUBEN: And, like, the people around me, like, my main supports and you guys, like, they. Everyone knows my stuff. So it’s like, I can’t. Even if I think I’m getting away with something, I’m never getting away with it.

BEC: And.

RUBEN: And, like, another thing I’ve learned from, like, being clean. It’s like, even when no one knows I know. And it’s like, well, what am I comfortable sitting with? And what am I, you know, and it’s like, I get clean and stuff sort of doesn’t sit right with me. And it’s like, you know, I don’t want to live like that even when I’m clean. It’s like, I don’t want to have that feeling of, like, guilt or like I’m doing something. You know, just have, like, clear conscience would be nice. And just, like, not having to, like, cover up or, like, have to make up some reason, you know, just to be able to live honestly.

BEC: Because that’s the side that people don’t see and I guess people don’t care about. But it’s exhausting.

RUBEN: Yes.

BEC: The using drugs, the whole part. It’s not just using drugs. It is. It’s the lying, the manipulating everything that goes with it. And it is exhausting. And it’s. You’re stuck in this terrible cycle and it’s so tiring. Being paranoid, all that sort of stuff.

RUBEN: Yeah, 100%. It’s. And then to come into recovery, like, for me, earlier on, like, now I’m sort of used to sort of. But, like, you come from this world where it’s like, you know, you sort of don’t tell anyone anything. You sort of, like, you know, you have to. You’re not vulnerable. You’re not telling people, like, what’s going on for you. And then to come into, like, recovery and rehab, and you gotta, like, tell people how you’re feeling or, like, what you’re afraid or, like, you know, all this stuff, it’s like. It’s very, like, foreign.

BEC: And when you’ve done it a few times and when they know you’ve gotta walk in the door and literally we sort of like, go. Be vulnerable.

RUBEN: Yeah. Yeah.

BEC: Hi. You’re just in here. Haven’t even detoxed yet. Be vulnerable. Yeah. It would push you harder and harder.

RUBEN: Well, yeah, this time it was like, let’s get to work. And that’s what I need. I need someone to be like. Like, you got to start doing the work, you know, because it is work. Yeah. 100. It’s work. And sometimes it’s really painful and hard. But it’s so much more worth it than using. Like, using. I’m just going around in circles, slowly down. Like, at least now, like, when I have a hard day, it’s like, oh, it’s just a hard day. It’s a, like, hard moment. Or it’s just a. Like a painful thought. A lot of the times, like, I get my thoughts mixed up with how I’m actually feeling. Like, I could be actually feeling pretty good, and I’ll just have these bad thoughts and it’s like, well, I just got it. Like, you know, there’s ways I can get through that. I don’t need to sort of be consumed by it or act on it or you know, take it as fact. Yeah.

BEC: And that’s so important.

RUBEN: Yeah.

BEC: To be making sure that you’re aware of that. And that pro is also probably why it takes a little bit longer for some people. Because you have to get that awareness.

RUBEN: Yeah.

BEC: It has to be front and centre and without it and without the work, like. And I guess that’s a look theme of today really is that it’s all been up to you. Like we can give you support, you can be given tools, you can everything place to live, you know, five star treatment. But it doesn’t really mean anything to you are ready to do the work a hundred percent.

RUBEN: And awareness is a massive one. There’s so like just becoming aware of stuff is like a lot of things I wasn’t even aware of. Like people like, you’re avoidant. I’m like, what’s avoidant? Like all these things that it’s just like I had no idea. But over time it’s like I can be like, oh yeah, I do that. And I think that’s what treatment’s good for. Especially like a tc because you’re living around people and like they’re like, well this is what you do. What are you gonna do about it? And then I’ve got a choice. And I think that’s what it comes back to do.

BEC: You find that liberating and sort of free. Like I find personally, I don’t know what you think, Josh, but I find the fact that I’m self aware and in that self awareness I have to commit to owning it. I find it like it gives me this level of freedom because I’m always authentically myself bad or good.

RUBEN: Yeah.

BEC: Or you still, you’re probably still in that stage of oh, a little bit maybe.

RUBEN: I don’t know. I think it can also be painful becoming aware of stuff.

BEC: Yeah.

RUBEN: Like, yeah, it’s like, oh cool. Like I know why I do this and this is what I do and. But it’s also like when I’m still acting out on stuff that brings me pain and I’m aware of it’s like, it’s almost more difficult because it’s like I’m aware that this is my stuff and I like I still doing it. Yeah. It’s like I got to do something about it.

BEC: And you think about where. And there’s some of that stuff too. Whether it’s from when we’re kids or whatever that you then get a bit sad when you are becoming aware. You get a bit sad because you’re like, oh, my God, I’ve done this my whole life. Yeah, that’s really sad that was the mechanism that I chose to protect myself.

RUBEN: Yeah.

JOSH: It starts the grieving as well once you become aware. So there’s a lot of things that come with it.

RUBEN: Yeah. 100.

JOSH: But I hear it definitely, like, if you want some self awareness, that comes with price.

RUBEN: Yeah.

JOSH: You know, it comes with all the emotions attached to it and the options of like doing something about it, you know, where before you just kind of just going along.

RUBEN: Yeah.

JOSH: Doing whatever, just autopilot.

BEC: Right.

JOSH: And that’s totally normal. But when your world kind of expands and you open up that box, it’s like, yeah, now it’s yours to own.

RUBEN: And then like to understand where it came from as well. I think, like, that’ll help me a lot because, you know, a lot of stuff did come from childhood. Even before drugs. I picked up drugs as a solution. Like, a lot of it’s like, oh, this, I did this when I was a kid, so it’s going to take me a long time to sort of, you know, change that and like, just be kind to like myself, which I feel disgusting even saying, like, be kind to yourself. But it’s like, yeah.

BEC: No, but it’s a foreign concept.

RUBEN: Yeah. It’s like, oh, like I’ve like, I learned this behaviour, like, and it served me. And it’s like, yeah, now it doesn’t really serve me. It sort of gets me into like trouble a bit. It doesn’t sort of align with who I want to be in recovery, but, like, I don’t have to beat myself up for that stuff.

JOSH: That’s a brilliant thing about, like being in recovery.

RUBEN: Right.

JOSH: Like, yeah, there’s people out there that spend their whole lives just on autopilot.

RUBEN: Yeah.

JOSH: And not having the opportunity to kind of unpack any of this stuff. But when you burn your life to the ground multiple times and I can speak from experience that it presents the option of like, okay, cool, well, I get to actually look at this stuff and my life can change. And yeah, like, I know people that are like 60 years old that have been doing the same thing, but they don’t have a relationship, a really close relationship with anybody. There’s no intimacy, there’s no real connection. And that stuff from childhood’s been holding them back their whole life. But they’ve managed to tick the boxes over time and create this illusion of what, like, you know, a good life is meant to look like, but none of it is valuable at all, you know, so now you’re in that kind of position where you get to build.

BEC: Yeah.

JOSH: You know, and that’s really nice. And I guess we’re working with you over time. The one thing I’ve seen is this person kind of always willing. But now it seems like you’ve. You’ve had the insight of some of the stuff that’s been holding you back and you’ve become teachable.

RUBEN: Yeah. Right.

JOSH: I think with addicts, like it’s natural for us to want to collect the evidence ourselves.

RUBEN: Yeah.

JOSH: But then once you’ve done it time and time again, like, you realise that, okay, maybe I don’t know what I’m doing.

RUBEN: Yeah.

JOSH: You know, but this person does know and I’m going to trust that they know better than I do.

RUBEN: Yeah.

JOSH: And there’s something really. I know it’s like uplifting and like freeing about that whole sort of mind frame.

RUBEN: 100%.

BEC: Yeah. And that self awareness too. I think when you’re actually in recovery, what it does is it allows you to connect and it’s a different and you actually feel it and that’s what you’ve achieved. Building off what Josh said, that’s what you’ve achieved. You now, like, we’ve always had a great relationship, but now I feel like you come in and I always imagine it like, I don’t know how you see little neurons and things. Like we just click.

RUBEN: Yeah.

BEC: You know what I mean? We walk in the room, we do click and then we have our conversation and it’s really meaningful and it’s funny or, you know, or it’s deep or whatever it is. And then we go about our day. But until you’re ready for that, it doesn’t happen. And I think once you building that self awareness and taking some ownership and you are being, you know, like you said, teachable, then you’re open to this connection. And that’s what people out there who have never, you know, been an addict or never done the work, they don’t understand that connection. And I feel like that everyone in recovery has the ability to have this beautiful, I don’t know, these beautiful relationships with others where, you know, everyone does really connect on a. And on a deeper level. And I see you in that space now getting into that space where it’s not just that surface level stuff. Yeah, yeah.

RUBEN: And inactive addiction, it’s all transactional, so very shallow. Like. And it’s all just like. It’s not really connection, it’s just transactions and like, yeah, and I think that’s what I’ve always wanted, is some connection and like. And I think I sort of found that in. I thought I’d found that in drugs. But then being in recovery, like, you meet people and it’s like, it’s real connection, it’s real support and like, you know, and for me that’s like people telling me things I don’t want to hear as well and like giving me hard truths and all that sort of stuff. Like. But yeah, I think that’s probably what I’ve always been looking for is some sort of connection and.

BEC: But you haven’t allowed it because you haven’t been aware, so you can’t. How do you, how do you do something that requires you to be self aware and when you can’t be self aware? And that’s what I believe, connection. You need to have some kind of self awareness. People can’t just go around connecting to everyone. Like, it doesn’t work like that. And you see in rehab the people who are still transactional and remain that way throughout their entire treatment versus the ones that are ready to get down to it.

RUBEN: Yeah. And I, and I completely understand it. Like, you come from using and then you get in recovery and it’s sort of like that’s how you connect with people. You talk about crime, you talk about drugs and everything that comes with that life. But like, there’s so much more than that. And now I sort of, like, I don’t really want anything to do that sort of conversation, like, it’s meaningless to me. I’d rather know, like, you know, I don’t know other stuff about me and.

BEC: Other people, like, you seem to be more interested in others and what they’re doing and, you know, instead of just talking about nonsense. Yeah, yeah.

JOSH: I just remember when I got clean, like, one of the things, like I was really hard to get over wasn’t just the drugs, it was the lifestyle and the chaos.

RUBEN: Yeah.

JOSH: Of it all, I’m interested to know, like, have. Has there been any sort of ruminating on that sort of lifestyle? Because I found it quite hard to transition out of that because it was easy for me to make money, but I knew it was compromising my values. It was all this sort of stuff. So I’ve essentially had to be broke in order to, you know, start again.

RUBEN: The most thing that I think about the most is like my only responsibility or like my only sort of. Like I felt like it was my only responsibility when I’m using is Just making sure I’ve got drugs and maintaining that. And now that I’m clean, it’s like I’ve got to worry about all this other stuff, like housing bills, all this norm, which is completely normal for most people. But then for me it’s like this stuff is stressful and like I know if I’m using, like all I am worried about is just using. So I think that’s. That plays on my mind a bit. It’s like how. Because I don’t know how to do a lot of that stuff. Like I’ve never really done it and. Or when I have, like it hasn’t gone well. So I think that’s probably what goes around my head the most.

BEC: And there is normal life things. Yeah. That we’re talking about.

RUBEN: Probably normal life.

BEC: I don’t even think people understand that. Like, I don’t think they get it. Like, that is something that’s really challenging for you to come out of rehab, be in recovery and just normal life things. Especially if you’ve never done that. Like, you know, if you’ve been using since you were young, there’s, you know, those fundamental skills that you needed aren’t necessarily there and that’s where you need, you know, support long term to do those things and that. And you should feel really safe in being able to say, I don’t know how to do that. Like.

RUBEN: And like one thing I’m learning is like managing money. Like, like I’m used to. I’ll. Whatever money I get, it’ll go straight away. But it’s like, no, like planning for the future and budgeting and like putting things. That’s not something I’ve ever done before. Just all simple stuff like that to most people that like, that’s what they do. But it’s like, yeah. Recovery is so much more than just getting off drugs. It’s like I gotta learn pretty much how to do everything differently. Yeah. And learn things that I haven’t really done, which to most people would be like, what are you doing? Like, they wouldn’t get it. But yeah, it’s a whole. It’s pretty much every area of my life that. Yeah.

BEC: And. And this time I think you’ve really levelled up and you’re taking all that seriously. And so it’s intense.

RUBEN: Yeah. I’ve got to. I mean. Well, I don’t have to. I’ve always got a choice, but you know. No, I want to. Definitely. Yeah.

BEC: So if there were people like listening or watching now, what do you think from your journey, what are the biggest things that you would want people to understand?

RUBEN: The biggest thing I’d want people to understand is that if you’ve got a shot at recovery, like, try and make the most of it because a lot of people don’t get a shot at it. And like, people that, like, I’m lucky, like, people go back and use, like, they die and I, like, I’ve lost a lot of people to using, so I’d say, like, realise how precious it is.

BEC: Well, we’re really proud of you. I am so proud of you and I’m really looking forward to the next few months. But thank you for coming in today. I know you were nervous, but. Yeah, it’s been wonderful. So thank you so much.

JOSH: It’s an amazing story. I mean, and it’s just shows that recovery is not lineal. You know, there’s ups and downs and like someone like you that just keeps coming back and keeps trying, you learn so much more over the. Over those times, those setbacks, you come back and you’re willing and you just learn more and more about yourself and it just becomes easier and easier over time as you keep learning. And I think it’s a good message for whoever’s listening that, like, I sort.

RUBEN: Of have the mindset of. It’s like, well, what have I got to like, help people? Like, you know, like, I’m just keep, like relapsing all this sort of stuff. But, you know, if I can help one person that’s like, you know, keeps relapsing, like, that’s enough for me to come on here and share my experience.

BEC: I think it’s a really important point that people avoid all the time. Everyone wants to say, yeah, go to rehab or you’re gonna get your life back. And it doesn’t always happen like that the first time or the second time. Yeah, but we’re really proud of you and we love your here. Thank you so much, Ruben.

RUBEN: Cheers.

TOBY VO: You’ve been listening to Beyond the Noise from Arrow Health. For help or more stories, visit arrowhealth.com.au.

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