🎙️Beyond the Noise: Episode 2

BEYOND THE NOISE FROM ARROW HEALTH
Podcast Transcript: Reclaiming Life – A Story of Faith and Fight

Featuring: Bec (Host) and Josh (Guest – Program Manager at Arrow Health)

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TOBY VO: This is beyond the noise from arrowhealth. Real voices, raw stories, and the truth about addiction, recovery and life.

BEC: On today’s podcast, I’ve got Josh here with me. He is a programme manager at ArrowHealth and he’s got an incredible story to share, which I think the world should hear. So welcome, Josh.

JOSH: Thanks for having me. That’s all right. Yeah.

BEC: So now, I sent you this yesterday, telling you what I’ve titled this podcast and it’s called Reclaiming Life, A Story of Faith and Fight. And I just thought that it really encompassed you and your journey. Would you agree?

JOSH: Yeah. Look, when I. When you sent it to me, I was. I was really shocked about how much you know about me. I was like, oh, my goodness. There’s like, I’ve divulged a lot of information to you.

BEC: Maybe I’ve just picked up on it.

JOSH: Yeah. Yeah, that’s true. Yeah. Yeah. So. Yep.

BEC: So I guess what I would love to talk about is your. Your journey from, you know, where. Where everything started, where Josh, little Joshy started, and all the way through this incredible journey to this person. You have become one of the most amazing people in my life. One of the most amazing people that I know. Not just a person, but as a man, you know, I have so much admiration and respect for you, and that’s why I just. I think your story needs to be heard because how you got here is, you know, has been a big fight.

JOSH: Yeah. Yeah. Well, thank you for those kind words. I don’t, you know. You know me. I don’t know how to receive these kind of words really well.

BEC: Something you need to work on?

JOSH: Yes, probably something I need to work on. I always deflect that sort of stuff. Yeah. I think it’s been, like, a really long and fulfilling journey, you know, Like, I have a really loving family. I grew up in. In, like, the city area, so around Richmond and stuff. Single mom. My dad was in prison when I was in very young age, so kind of separated from birth. I’m a very proud Gundi Chumaram bachelor man, so I’m very connected to my people and my mob, and my mum was really passionate about that as well. She’s white, but she really emphasised me getting in my culture and making sure I was connected to my culture to the best of her ability. So a very loving mum, good family. Had an amazing stepdad. Still have. He’s awesome.

JOSH: He treats me like one of his own and he always has. Their family has welcomed me in from. Since I was three years old, so, yeah, I’ve always. I’ve got his last name. I respect and love him so much. I’m not sure if I put myself in his shoes, how I would treat. I hope to be just as good as him at, like, raising someone else’s child and treating him like my own. So I have a lot of respect for him and his family as well, which are my family. But I think, like, growing up, like, I always had this sense of, like, being different than everyone else because I was, like, the only black fella in my household.

BEC: Yeah, it makes a difference, huh?

JOSH: Yeah. And then when my mum had more kids, then it kind of drove that sort of belief that I was different.

BEC: They weren’t in that family unit, like, from the beginning sort of thing. Like, they were, would you say? Like, they were their kids?

JOSH: Yeah, it kind of, like, the way I felt, it was like I was on the outside and they have their family, and all I was doing was kind of disrupting the process. You. So that was kind of the belief that happened.

BEC: That was your own narrative.

JOSH: That was my. Definitely my own narrative.

BEC: From the sounds of what I know of you, I doubt your mum or your stepdad gave that impression. But that was little Josh’s narrative, 100% for sure.

JOSH: And looking back, like, this is the great thing about, like, you know, having some hindsight and looking back, like, what I thought was me being separate and, like, almost like segregated from my own family was quite the opposite. But it was just my perception of the situation at the time, and I believed it. So because I believed it so much, I began to separate myself or began to see the things where I was different, you know, and that really drove a lot of my anger and stuff moving forward. And I think. I think with that narrative in your head, you’re looking. You’re always looking for people to complete that narrative. So anytime someone would say something, I would be like, of course, you know, that’s validated. Validated me.

JOSH: I’m definitely different, you know, And I guess that’s the posture I had, you know, And I guess being indigenous as well, just in society in general, you always feel like you are different.

BEC: Yeah.

JOSH: You know, and it’s in the little things. It’s in the, like, even having. You know, when I went to school, I had AB study, but the kids.

BEC: The other kids had. I’ll study. Like, yeah, it’s that. It’s where everyone’s trying to be inclusive, but they almost make it exclude. Like, they’re excluding people with their. With these things instead of keeping it all the same 100%. Yeah.

JOSH: And that’s like. When I looked into it further, it was like there was actually no different with the funding because, like, the people that got Oz study actually got more than me. You know what I mean?

BEC: This is crazy. So it’s like a pointless exercise to even do it and try and say, oh, we’re really inclusive.

JOSH: Yeah.

BEC: Culturally inclusive. Yeah.

JOSH: I think it was like, my family earned more money than other people’s family, so that’s why I kind of got less. But, you know, it just kind of. These things were always completing the narrative that I had about myself.

BEC: Because you were already, you know, subconsciously looking for them and behaving in ways that probably made you stand out from everyone.

JOSH: Yeah.

BEC: Because that was your. Yeah. To go along with the narrative and.

JOSH: Being the only other. Like, I was the only. I think there was two indigenous kids that went to my high school.

BEC: Yeah.

JOSH: So I was like, already, like, people really tried to, like, understand me, but I couldn’t even understand myself. So good luck, you know?

BEC: Yeah.

JOSH: I kind of set them up for failure the whole time, but they really tried. But, yeah, I was like. Yeah. So that really drove my anger and I think that’s when, like, I really searched to escape myself as much as I could.

BEC: Yeah.

JOSH: I found a lot of validation in playing sport and that I was good at that. Yeah. So I was always known as, like, the person that played sport that was good at sport.

BEC: Yeah.

JOSH: Which, I don’t know, really drove home that narrative. Indigenous narrative, anyway. Like, you know, like, they’re like, yeah, he’s a black fellow, he’s going to be good at sport, he’s gonna run. And I’m like, oh, my goodness, why can’t I be good at math or something? You know? So, yeah, something a little bit different, but it just. It didn’t pan out that way and. And, yeah, so I had this underlying anger and hatred for, like, myself.

BEC: Yeah.

JOSH: And the world around me, you know? So, yeah, even though I had really loving people in my life, like, big family, really connected to my indigenous culture and my brothers and sisters there, I have a pretty big family who we’re really close, but also connected to my stepdad’s family, also connected to my mum’s family. So we’re really tight. There’s not many people that are, like, separate from the fan. Do you know what I mean?

BEC: Everyone’s totally in it and combined and there’s all this love, but it’s just not.

JOSH: I’m not feeling any of it.

BEC: Yeah, you’re Totally disconnected.

JOSH: All I’m doing is pointing out the differences.

BEC: Yeah. Finding any small. Any small crack and you’re like, see, that’s. I’m different.

JOSH: Exactly.

BEC: Yeah, exactly.

JOSH: And that kind of like, that narrative played for a very long time until, like, you know, I kind of, like, discovered drugs and then alcohol, and that kind of like, allowed me the ability to, I guess, kind of tolerate people. Would be. And tolerate myself, you know?

BEC: Yeah.

JOSH: So I was, you know, I. I got into a lot of fights, all that sort of stuff, like, really early, and I knew that I couldn’t sustain this sort of, like, life, you know, of just being angry and wanting to fight everyone.

BEC: Yeah.

JOSH: Like, I, you know, I was pushing a lot of people away, but the drugs actually helped me. Like, I guess they regulated you, which.

BEC: Is what drugs do in that moment. They regulate you so you don’t have to behave in those certain ways, but knocked you out so you couldn’t knock out anyone else.

JOSH: Exactly.

BEC: Yeah.

JOSH: Yeah. It definitely. It definitely numbed a lot of that stuff. So, you know, drugs serve a purpose. You know, they work really well and that’s why we use them, because they do work. But, yeah, I delved into that for a very long time. So I don’t know if I answered your question.

BEC: No, you know, we’re talking about the journey. Yeah, yeah. And so how old were you now? So you’ve started, you know. You know, you’re drinking using.

JOSH: Probably 18.

BEC: Yeah. Right.

JOSH: Yeah. So I started pretty late compared to.

BEC: Yeah.

JOSH: The people that I work with.

BEC: The rest of us.

JOSH: Yeah.

BEC: Came out of the womb.

JOSH: Yeah, yeah. It was like. It was really, like I was probably a late bloomer compared to, like, everyone else.

BEC: Yeah.

JOSH: Delving into it, especially with the substances, I ended up, like, really delving into deeply.

BEC: Yeah.

JOSH: It’s just the natural progression of, like, the. The disease is just like once one thing kind of wears off, you want to get something that’s a little bit. Takes you out of your body even more, helps you tolerate other people. And they work for a short period of time. They really work. I was able to, like, own my own business. I was able to get an apprenticeship, you know, so it served a purpose and, like, it worked really well and it went under the radar. Like, people didn’t really know. Yeah. So it’s really interesting how it progressed over a period of time. But eventually, like, I met my wife and were probably on and off for a while. We. She got pregnant and then she got clean, and I just kept using. And that’s when the lies came into it.

JOSH: I pretended I wasn’t using all that sort of stuff. So.

BEC: So got more chaotic now. Because now you’re lying, you’re hiding your.

JOSH: Yeah. I think with that the shame comes even more and you have to use more and more.

BEC: And what were you using now?

JOSH: Like, at this point, I was using Xanax a lot.

BEC: Yeah.

JOSH: Weed, Xanax. I probably just started smoking a lot of meth.

BEC: Yeah.

JOSH: At the time to kind of counter the Xanax.

BEC: Yeah.

JOSH: I was like this pharmacist, like this, like.

BEC: But that’s what everyone does, isn’t it, where there’s always. There’s something to keep you awake and something to put you to sleep. So there’s. That’s why there’s so much poly drug use, because you know, everyone’s sort of starting to work out. You can’t just sustain one thing, like being asleep all the time or being awake. You’ve got. If you’re going to hide this, you’ve got to resemble some type of functioning.

JOSH: Exactly.

BEC: Even if it’s chaos.

JOSH: Yeah. And you kind of like. Like, you know, you kind of feel out your doses and all this other stuff. It’s like I was basically a gp, essentially. Like, I was like the best gp and I found balances and I knew what worked. I would use on weekends, then I’d use, you know, Xanax during the week.

BEC: Yeah.

JOSH: All that sort of stuff. So it didn’t just go full ball. It’s like it just progressed.

BEC: Things just kept progressing before you knew it.

JOSH: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then. Yeah. Then it became like, when did.

BEC: When did that. Yeah, that rock bottom like that, where I would say it led to rehab.

JOSH: Probably when my son was born. Yeah. By that time, by the time he was born, I was still working. I was doing rendering and stuff. So I was paying the bills, paying the house. I wasn’t dealing and stuff. And just to backpedal a little bit, I’d always been dealing, getting into some sort of, like, mischief, you know, I knew how to make money on the street, so I’d learned how to sustain a lifestyle. So I wasn’t without money or anything like that, but I was always doing something dodgy. Yeah. So I stopped dealing and all that sort of stuff. And then I think when I made a commitment not to deal because I had to deal with all the other things that came with that collective and, you know, all the stuff. Right.

JOSH: I think then I really delved into, like, the shame, like the shame spiral of, like, being a Father.

BEC: Yeah.

JOSH: And having to.

BEC: It would have been a pivotal moment that having a child and being in this state, like. Yeah. A lot of reflecting.

JOSH: And I justified it because, like, I needed to use. Because I need to give my wife a break.

BEC: Yeah.

JOSH: You know what I mean? She’s feeding the child. I need to stay up.

BEC: Yeah. So this was all the stuff you’re telling yourself, like. Yeah, exactly.

JOSH: And that’s what kept me using even more is because I would make sure. Sure. I was always ticking the boxes. My kids never went to daycare like this.

BEC: Yeah.

JOSH: They always had clothes. They were showered every day. They had dinner on time. They never missed a meal, all that sort of stuff. But meanwhile they’re kind of just in front of the TV while I’m in the garage smoking meth.

BEC: Yeah. Yeah.

JOSH: And people are coming in and out of my house. So I guess like the rock bottom was really when my son came along. This is my second child. And I couldn’t. I become unhirable.

BEC: Yeah. Okay. So we. Yeah, we’ve passed the point of return now. Like we can’t function now.

JOSH: It’s like my. My sole purpose is the getting and using of drugs while raising children.

BEC: Yeah.

JOSH: So we’re looking at like my priorities in life. It became using kids, wife, then everything else underneath that. So it had shifted on its head before. It was like support the family, all this sort of stuff. And that became secondary to everything else that was going on. So I think the rock bot. My first rock bottom was really that, like just the priorities just shifting to having to get in use at all costs. Yeah. I compromised every value I had ever had. You know, I lived in this place of like, daily compromise of me. You know.

BEC: And knowing you now, I know you now. And I’ve. You know, you are the person you are. And I believe that’s the person you’ve always been. Irrespective. That would have caused internal turmoil.

JOSH: Really did.

BEC: Like I would imagine self hatred. Like just.

JOSH: Yeah.

BEC: Putrid.

JOSH: It got to a point where I couldn’t even look myself in the mirror. Like I had to. Every time I had a shower. I would make sure I ran into the shower, turned on the hot water so I would steam up the mirrors.

BEC: Wow.

JOSH: Because I just couldn’t see myself, you know. So I’d put on all this weight in the. Cause I was really skinny.

BEC: Yeah.

JOSH: And I love going to the gym and all this stuff. And then with my using. Because I’d never seen myself in the mirror for so long. The first time I seen myself in the mirror is when I went to rehab and I realised I’d put on 20 kilos and I had, like. Had, like, tits, you know, I was like, what is this? You know, it was crazy. Oh, I’m like, oh, my goodness. I am like a large human being. So it was really funny because I never looked myself in the mirror. I just couldn’t look myself in the mirror. There’s so much shame, you know, attached to that whole thing. And you just use even more. And that’s when, like, the GHB came into it, because I was smoking meth all the time. It was like having a coffee by the end of it.

BEC: Yeah.

JOSH: You know what I mean? My dopamine’s so depleted. It’s like any. Any spark of my dopamine is just keeping me sustained.

BEC: Yeah.

JOSH: Right. But the juice, really, like, I could feel every time that I took it, the flood of dopamine that would hit my brain.

BEC: Did you say this is the beginning of the end? Introduce the juice and it’s game over?

JOSH: This is when I started, like, robbing people, started robbing my friends.

BEC: Yeah.

JOSH: I started to lie a lot. Yeah. I just became really, like, detached from, like, reality. From my wife.

BEC: Yeah.

JOSH: A lot more lying. Yeah. Sneakiness, all that sort of stuff, like. Yeah. I think. Yeah. And I was just willing to do whatever it took to use.

BEC: Yeah.

JOSH: So it didn’t matter who I hurt. I think the ghp, from what I’ve observed of other people as well, really is, like, their downfall. I’ve seen people use for a very long time and kind of. But then when they touch that drug.

BEC: Yeah.

JOSH: That’s it. Any value that they have is gone and it just.

BEC: They’re so disinhibited and it’s just. It’s. Yeah. It’s pretty ugly to see.

JOSH: It’s disgusting. And it’s like. It’s so easy to get and so.

BEC: Cheap that you can kind of easy to hide, too. Like, it’s one of those things no one even. No one has to know. Like, unless, you know, Unless, you know, we know what it looks like, you know, how someone presents. But most people, you know.

JOSH: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, if you. I think it’s one of these. I mean, it’s so finite in the choosing because, like, you can have the right dose, but if you double that dose by, like, just once that you were. You’re passing out.

BEC: Yeah.

JOSH: You’re ODing, essentially. You know, I know people that have died that way and I’ve done it myself and I know I’ve Woken up almost at the brink of death because I can feel my nervous system just like fighting for its life and I can barely breathe.

BEC: Yeah.

JOSH: So there’s a lot of scary things, but, yeah, I think, like, the GHB was really the turning point.

BEC: It sort of destroyed, like, it was like the final straw. It destroyed everything.

JOSH: The myth got me there for sure.

BEC: Yeah.

JOSH: That made me unhirable, all that sort of stuff. But then, yeah, when I really compromised, all my values destroyed, my relationship with my wife, all that sort of stuff was when the GHB came in.

BEC: Yeah.

JOSH: And I was a massive victim. Oh, my goodness.

BEC: Yeah. Yeah, I can see it now.

JOSH: Yeah.

BEC: Because that. You know why? That’s because that’s why now, because similar. It triggers you when someone’s been a victim because you’re just like, stop. Yeah.

JOSH: Yeah. It’s like, come on, pull your head in. Get out of this. Get out of this place. Because it does nothing for you. You know, like if you live in you. It’s like that going back to the start, you know, like with the whole, I’m separate from the world.

BEC: Yeah.

JOSH: That allowed me to be angry.

BEC: Yeah.

JOSH: Do you know what I mean?

BEC: Yeah. It gave you permission.

JOSH: It gave me permission, exactly. So you can. You can look for things to complete the narrative. For sure. If you’re a victim, you will 100 it will be everyone else’s fault.

BEC: And ye.

JOSH: And.

BEC: Well, I was just talking. We did a session with our family therapist, Julie Lever, and were talking about how we push so much that you always have to own your part in every single interaction you have in every single situation. We have a part to own. And that’s like, at the forefront of what we sort of push with not only one another but with all the clients. And it’s, you know, that’s just how you have to think like that.

JOSH: Yeah. You have to take some accountability, else nothing’s going to happen.

BEC: Yeah.

JOSH: You can’t expect to change everyone else’s behaviour. You have to try to look at your own and your part in things. And I think that’s where things really shift.

BEC: Yeah.

JOSH: You get some space and you get to really, like, assess, like, what’s the limitations, what’s impacting my interpersonal relationships, how I connect with other people, what are the gaps? And it always comes back to you.

BEC: Yeah.

JOSH: You know, if you become introspective, you’re able to change a lot of those things and suddenly it’s not really about everyone else, it’s about your approach to things.

BEC: Yeah. And would you say, I Find the more you do it, the easier it is. Like, I don’t find it hard to look at a situation and just go, yeah, that’s what I did. Got to work on that or got to switch that up. Like, I don’t struggle. You know, when you first start doing it’s that sort of guilt and shame and you don’t want to look at stuff.

JOSH: Yeah.

BEC: But the more you do it, the easier it is to hold yourself accountable and be like, yeah, I probably shouldn’t have done that, or that was okay.

JOSH: Yeah, I totally agree. I mean, to have the posture of, like, bringing it back to yourself, that’s when some meaningful stuff can happen anyway. And suddenly, like, all the people around you are no longer like, I don’t need to fix this person. I don’t need to fix that. I just need to own my part.

BEC: Yeah.

JOSH: So there’s this sense of control.

BEC: Yeah.

JOSH: And what’s going on when we feel like, so out of control that we need to use to escape ourselves. And I think that’s what addicts, like, generally have, is this. They’re so uncomfortable in their own skin that they’re just willing to escape at all costs.

BEC: Yeah.

JOSH: You know?

BEC: Yeah.

JOSH: But I think that takes time as well.

BEC: You do the work, like, you’ve done the work. So obviously, like, you hit rock bottom and then they had to go somewhere, you know, so take me back to there. I want to know.

JOSH: So I think rock bottom. I remember it pretty vividly, like, the reason why I came to rehab. And I always felt like maybe five years before I. I entered into a relationship with God and had this real experience like this. Me and my wife had it at the same time, which was undeniable. And, you know, we became Christians, which took a lot of time because, you know, we didn’t really grow up in Christian families.

BEC: Yeah.

JOSH: So.

BEC: And in the. And being indigenous, the. The. The beliefs are quite different, I think.

JOSH: Like, well, look, the statistics are that most indigenous people are Christians.

BEC: Yeah.

JOSH: Right. Yeah. So it’s quite, you know, that we have, like, a lot of missions and stuff where they kind of introduce that.

BEC: Yeah. Right.

JOSH: As well. So there’s a lot of. Yeah. A lot of indigenous people believe in Christianity. Not really in my family.

BEC: Yeah.

JOSH: So that wasn’t a big thing. My mum is Catholic, so I always had, like, maybe a sense of it, but it was always like that. Go to church on Christmas.

BEC: Yeah, yeah.

JOSH: Type of thing. Or I would visit this church, eat.

BEC: Fish on Good Friday, 100.

JOSH: That’s so funny. Because this. That happened all the time. But, yeah, it was kind of like that sort of environment. We had this encounter and I was like, we tried to get clean through that, but I just wasn’t committed and neither was she. But we had this relationship. We had this experience which took a lot of, like, investigating time to research all that other stuff, to grow this relationship while being pretty detached from ourselves. Yeah. So it’s hard to connect with God.

BEC: Yeah.

JOSH: When you’re so detached. But in my using, when I’m fogging up the mirrors, I would always periodically feel this sense of like, I love you.

BEC: Yeah.

JOSH: You know, and I knew it wasn’t me saying this because I collected enough evidence to show that I have no idea what I’m doing and I do not love myself.

BEC: Yeah.

JOSH: At all.

BEC: Yeah.

JOSH: So I hated myself. So. But this thing, like, this word would come into my heart, like, I love you, son.

BEC: Yeah.

JOSH: And I’m like, I need to, like, lean into this. I need to lean into this. And during this time, my pastors from this church that I started to go to would rock up randomly, like in the middle of the night, like 11, 12 o’, clock, and be like, josh, we’ve been praying for you. The Lord told us to come here and. And he’s telling us to get you to come to church.

BEC: Yeah.

JOSH: You don’t need to get clean. You don’t need to do anything. Use out the front. Come in.

BEC: Yeah. Yeah. Right.

JOSH: We want you to. To hunger for God.

BEC: Just embracing you.

JOSH: Just embrace. Yeah, that’s it. They just come as you are. You don’t need to change anything. You need to shift your focus.

BEC: Yeah.

JOSH: And I’m like, why are these people doing this? Like, why are they, you know, so, like, invested in you? Invested. Yeah. And they would take my drugs and it’s funny because they’ll take my drugs and they’ll be like, I spoke to them later on about it, but they would, like, drive the car and they’re like, oh, my goodness, I hope I don’t get pulled over. You know what I mean? Like, these pastors from church with all these drugs. And so I had people really speaking life into me.

BEC: Yeah.

JOSH: You know, but I had to make a choice between, like, my wife at the time and leaning into this relationship with God.

BEC: Yeah. And is that because she was still. Yeah, she was right in it. And just.

JOSH: We both were. Yeah. Both were just so right into it. But I. I couldn’t make a change based on her decision.

BEC: Yeah. Yeah.

JOSH: I needed to do it for myself. And it not just do it for myself. I needed to do it for my relationship with God. That was the main thing. That’s why I went to rehab. And I went kicking and screaming. Like, I went to the Armadale office, I had a charge, like. So I took some juice and by the time I got there, I was so messed up. I sat in the foyer and I just blew out in front of everyone. I woke up in the er. In the er, like, with all these things attached to me. I’m like. And it took me a while to come to. I’m like, what happened last night? And I realised that, like, oh, my goodness, I meant to be in treatment right now.

JOSH: And I’m like, oh, I got my mum to call up and say if I could come back the next day. And that was the last time I ever use. It was that day.

BEC: Yeah. You went all out for you. You know, I’m always surprised when people don’t come to rehab like that because it’s like, it’s a goodbye.

JOSH: Yeah. And I was committed to it.

BEC: Yeah.

JOSH: Okay. Pack my bags. See ya. Make sure I use. Make sure I use because I still got me to pack my bags. I’m like, I don’t even need to use after this. I’ve had enough. But, yeah, I went kicking and screaming, but I got there.

BEC: And what happened when. When he walked in, what was going on? Because you haven’t been to treatment before, had you now? So what, you walk in?

JOSH: Well, I ran into Trish. So, like. And then, because it was like the start of COVID so that. Yeah, no one could come in. So my pastor from church, he drove me there.

BEC: Yep.

JOSH: The second day.

BEC: Yeah.

JOSH: To come back.

BEC: Yeah.

JOSH: Right.

BEC: Yep.

JOSH: And he drove me there and basically just handed me over and I was like. I was so anxious, like, I hadn’t used. So I hadn’t taken any Valium or anything. So I’ve been.

BEC: So you’re detoxing?

JOSH: I’m in the thick of it. My body is shaking so much and I have. I just knew in my heart that all I’m doing is following what God wants me to do. He wants me to be here.

BEC: Yeah.

JOSH: So I just trusted in that. And it was scary, like being in a TC with like 20 other people who you don’t know. And I’m like, just in full fear, you know? So that was really hard transition to get through. But I was committed to the process.

BEC: Yeah.

JOSH: And I had willingness. I had like, one of the best things is like that gift of desperation. This was it. And whatever it Took. I’m going to do it.

BEC: And so I suppose then you start on this whole new journey in your life. So you’re in rehab, and that brings a whole lot of other challenges in itself around, you know, just, you know, you as a dad and what’s going to happen after that and then ultimately ending up where you are now. So what were, I guess, some key things or key moments that stick out to you, like, while you’re in rehab or things that you had to deal with that made the process difficult or made it, like, a little bit easier?

JOSH: Yeah, I think, like, therapeutic community model is really awesome because, like, you get to interact with all these other people, other walks of life, and you’re there sharing a similar sort of like, thing, which is your, like, addiction. You know, you’re all in there for the same place, regardless of where you come from. So integrating into that sort of thing was okay. After, like, a week, I made friends. I felt more comfortable. But there was one time when were doing, like, H and I, which is, like, when people from NA will zoom in and they’ll share their experience, strength and hope. And I didn’t know anything about NA or anything like that, but this one guy was sharing and I was like, oh, my goodness. Like, he. He sounds like he’s had my life. And then that. That was about two weeks in.

JOSH: And for me, it was kind of like I knew that my relationship with drugs was stopping my relationship with God. So I needed to remove the drugs, but I wasn’t committed to, like, ever stopping them altogether.

BEC: Yeah, okay.

JOSH: It shifted halfway through.

BEC: Yeah.

JOSH: And it was when he was sharing about, like, you know, his clean time, what his life looked like now, all that sort of stuff. And I’m like, oh, my goodness, I can relate to this person. And I remember the penny just dropp. I think I was, like, in probably some mild psychosis and stuff just before that.

BEC: Yeah.

JOSH: To land.

BEC: Yeah. Yeah.

JOSH: So I think that was a defining moment for me.

BEC: Isn’t that the beauty of treatment and meetings and things like that is it mightn’t be straight away, but there’ll always be someone that resonates with you or there’ll be a story that makes you go far out. I can do this because look at them. Or, wow, they get me, like, and that’s huge. A huge part. And we always say, you know, connection is what you need to get recovery and heal.

JOSH: Yeah, I think so too. And I think that’s where therapeutic communities model is really good as well, because we have this ability to connect with other people. Also, like, be supported.

BEC: Yeah.

JOSH: Because a lot of the time, like, when we’re in addiction, we want to do everything ourselves. We think we know it all.

BEC: Yeah.

JOSH: All that other stuff. So to be, I guess even try to be supported is really fulfilling. Yeah. That you can take a step back and trust other people.

BEC: Yeah.

JOSH: I think there’s, like, this real moment of, like, becoming teachable. I think that’s what addicts have separate to other people, is that they know that they don’t know what they’re doing and they can learn from someone else.

BEC: Yeah.

JOSH: They become teachable in the process. And that’s basically what happened with me. I know I’d collected the evidence to show you that I have no idea what I’m doing. When I do what I want to do, I burn my life to the ground multiple times so I can be taught what to do.

BEC: So do you say you surrendered?

JOSH: Definitely, yeah. 100%.

BEC: About halfway through, and you surrender.

JOSH: Yeah. And I think it was in that moment of. Of watching the H and I and being like, this is what I need to do.

BEC: Yeah.

JOSH: You know, so all part of the recovery or part of the plan. Yeah. But some. It’s something really, like. There’s like this weight off your shoulders when you come to that moment, because it’s like, okay, there is a plan. I can do this. If this bloke can do it, I’m sure I can do it.

BEC: Yeah.

JOSH: So it’s like tangible evidence of, like, people are actually getting this done where before I hadn’t been really introduced to it. So I. No, you know, there’s no evidence for me. There was no. There was no one I knew or anything like that. I was kind of the worst. And if you’re around me, you’re not clean.

BEC: Yeah, yeah. So it was the unknown.

JOSH: And if you’re clean, I don’t want to know you.

BEC: Yeah.

JOSH: You know what I mean? It’s like, you go do your own thing. All the best, you know?

BEC: Yeah. So would you say it was really hard. Was it hard work to get to, you know, I guess where you are now?

JOSH: Definitely. Definitely the first few months, because there’s so many unknowns. I had, like, court. I automatically became like, a single father.

BEC: For my children, which is incredible.

JOSH: Yeah.

BEC: And you should be very proud of what a wonderful dad you are.

JOSH: No, thank you. Like, it’s. I’m very supported as well, and I have a lot of people that are helping me. Like, it’s not like. It’s just me and the kids. It’s my family as well.

BEC: Yeah.

JOSH: My in laws.

BEC: Yeah.

JOSH: Help out. Everyone’s so invested in my children’s life.

BEC: Yeah.

JOSH: So I’m so blessed and loved by other people. Which is stark difference to the, like the. The way I grew up.

BEC: And you see that now. Yeah. Because I have no doubt that you were loved just as much then. But it’s that growth that’s given you the ability to see that, you know, and change the narrative.

JOSH: Yeah, exactly. The situations don’t need to change for the narrative to change.

BEC: Yeah.

JOSH: You know what I mean? So it’s like looking back at all that stuff, it’s like, well, now when I look back at it’s like, well, I was extremely loved. I have like huge family. Yeah. That I wouldn’t have had if I didn’t have this situation happen. So this perspective has definitely shifted.

BEC: Yeah.

JOSH: So I’m extremely grateful. I think that’s what I have a lot of, is a lot of gratitude and I allow myself to be supported. I have boundaries, all that sort of stuff. I can communicate how I’m feeling. I can let people into my life and not have these walls up.

BEC: Yeah.

JOSH: And I think the biggest thing for me in early recovery was this shock that although I was ticking the boxes with my children, I was so emotionally disconnected from them.

BEC: Yeah.

JOSH: And what was going on for them?

BEC: You know, you weren’t present.

JOSH: I wasn’t present at all. I was present physically, but emotionally I wasn’t there for them.

BEC: Yeah.

JOSH: And I think that was the biggest shock. And early recovery is really hard for anyone. But for me in particular, I had a lot of court cases.

BEC: Yeah.

JOSH: I’m going back to my mum’s house with two children. So there’s that. My what? My marriage has broken down. So I’m dealing with that. That it was a lot.

BEC: Yeah.

JOSH: And I was like holding on for dear life. Like I would do a couple of meetings a day, so I would just get a couple of hours up. Reassess.

BEC: Yeah.

JOSH: Do it that way. I just couldn’t see myself getting through the day at times. But then after a while that kind of piled itself up. I got through the court cases. I began to become like, I guess, reliable, had a good time.

BEC: Resilience. Bill. Would you say you got more resilient?

JOSH: And that’s why I just. It. You have to be willing to go through that. It’s just not ever going to be this whole process of like, everything’s awesome and I’m not using. That’s. That’s not A win anyway. I mean, if you get clean and you think life is awesome and you don’t have to have some trials and tribulations, you’re not going to like, you’re not going to build this thicken, like, you’re not going to callous, you’re not.

BEC: Going to sustain it, are you? Because sometimes life just does happen. And if you don’t get to experience those, you know, trials in that early recovery period, you’re not building up any of those skills or resilience.

JOSH: The amount of times, like I’ve gone through stuff now where I can refer back to that first year and be like, this is nothing.

BEC: Yeah.

JOSH: You know what I mean? Like, I’ve gotten through that first year.

BEC: Yes.

JOSH: So there’s a lot that needed to change. But. But, you know, I’m glad that I stuck it out, obviously.

BEC: Yeah.

JOSH: And then, yeah, life really started to like after a year. So my sponsor was really cool. Like I got a sponsor, I did the step work, all that sort of stuff, which was really fulfilling. Common theme with my step work is that I was a victim.

BEC: Yeah.

JOSH: And I blamed everyone else for my stuff. Yeah. So that came up a lot. So I began to like, really look at myself for my part and everything and take ownership of that. And that really helped with like my relationship with my ex partner with my kids, just building close relationships with people. And remember, I burnt a lot of bridges.

BEC: Yeah.

JOSH: So trying to build them back up took time.

BEC: Yeah.

JOSH: And I gave myself that time. I think the best advice my sponsor gave me was to just stick to the process and give yourself a year of being clean. Don’t try to think about it in like a lifetime of like, I have to be clean for a lifetime. Let’s just break off a year and see what life looks like after that. And that’s what I did. And by the time I got to a year, I got to like look back at what I collected over that time.

BEC: What you’d achieved and. Yeah.

JOSH: Yeah. Like life is really fulfilling. Yeah. And it didn’t take long. You know, it was just like a bit of a grind that I had to be willing to go through and.

BEC: And the grind was probably easier than the grind you were on when you were using. Even though at the time you didn’t realise it. You know, like the chaos of using and everything that comes with that.

JOSH: Yeah. Yeah. Oh, my goodness. That was like looking back at that. It’s more than a full time job.

BEC: Yeah.

JOSH: It’s everything you do.

BEC: Yeah.

JOSH: Every drop the kids off, you’re on the phone, you’re out and about. It’s just a constant.

BEC: Yeah.

JOSH: Ducking and dodging cops. You just. It’s just this constant fear, this, like, never ending.

BEC: And that’s why I always talk about chaos and calm. And, you know, you go from the chaos into the calm when you get recovery and it’s, you know, a reprieve. Like, even though it seems like it’s difficult, it’s still a lot calmer.

JOSH: It is. But there’s also, like, this transition to it because, you know, that lifestyle for so long.

BEC: Yeah.

JOSH: It’s like this bit of, like, getting used to just being in silence.

BEC: Yeah. Because you’re bored. Yeah, that’s what we see, you know, a lot. It’s that being bored, like.

JOSH: Yeah.

BEC: Oh, well, we’re not. Oh, we’ve got nothing to do now. Like, what are we meant to, you know, or. It’s not fun. You know, we’re not getting any enjoyment out of being clean. That always, you know, comes up.

JOSH: That always comes up.100. And it’s like, the way I like to frame boredom is like, an inability to sit with yourself, because that’s really what it means. Yeah, it does. I’m so uncomfortable in my own skin that I’m bored just sitting here.

BEC: Yeah.

JOSH: Like, you know, you can always get up and do something, but it’s like this. I don’t know. I think it’s really just an excuse.

BEC: Yeah. Yeah.

JOSH: Do you know what I mean? Like, you’re bored.

BEC: Yeah.

JOSH: I mean, like, really, you don’t have to be bored.

BEC: You’re an adult.

JOSH: That’s right. Of course. And it’s okay to, like, is it that uncomfortable, you not doing anything?

BEC: Yeah.

JOSH: You know what I mean?

BEC: Yeah.

JOSH: So even reframing that stuff, because I think, like, even using the word, like bored is like a real. Like, it plays into that victim.

BEC: Yeah, yeah. You just imagine a little kid. Mum on board. Yeah, exactly.

JOSH: Go draw. Yeah.

BEC: Go build some Lego. Yeah, yeah. You expect to say that to your kids, that. Yeah. Adults, when they’re like, oh, it’s boring and I’m bored. It’s like.

JOSH: Yeah. And that was me.

BEC: Fix it.

JOSH: Yeah, that was me. Like, I’m like, I’m bored. It’s like. It’s just like, where.

BEC: Yeah, yeah. Like. Yeah, grow up. Grow up. Yeah. 100.

JOSH: Like, you have to. Yeah. And that’s the thing. It’s like, I think a lot of times we really nurture people, you know, back to life, and there’s a period of that, but then there’s a Period of like, man, you know, like, pull your socks up, let’s go. You know what I mean? Like, when you’re going to grow a backbone here.

BEC: Yeah. Something to man up or woman out.

JOSH: Yeah, exactly. Like, in any situation, there needs to be this resilience that comes out. So you’ve got the power to, like, go back on this and be like, okay, cool. So I think that’s where. I think where people really trip up, is that they become passive.

BEC: You know, they’re not active. Well, they say if you’re not working on your recovery, working on your relapse.

JOSH: Yeah.

BEC: And that’s when they’ve become passive.

JOSH: Yeah.

BEC: They’re just letting life happen.

JOSH: Yeah.

BEC: And not actively going out there and. And doing what they’ve got to do.

JOSH: Yeah. And then no wonder you’re going to sit back and be like, you know, oh, this is boring. Like, of course, man.

BEC: Yeah.

JOSH: So you’re going through, like, post acute withdrawal. You’ve got anhedonia, which means, like, you’ve got, like, a lack of dopamine. Your brain needs time to recalibrate. There’s all this stuff. But in the face of all that stuff, you can do something. Yeah, but how willing are you?

BEC: You know, how much you want to push yourself.

JOSH: Exactly. And it’s all up to you. No one can do it. And.

BEC: And that’s why I think, you know, you. You have had an incredible journey because you did push yourself. Despite, you know, there’s so many people that would, you know, stayed in that victim mode. I’m a single dad now, this, that, the other. And you’ve done that. And then, you know, come full circle around to being so dedicated and so good at helping others, you know, Like, I remember, you know, when I started at Arrow and you came along and you were a support worker then, and I was just. I just. Your energy was just so great. It was just great. And I just adored you. And before. And here we are now, you’re. You’re the programme manager and I think we have the best programme in the country. And that comes purely from your.

BEC: Not just your experience, but your heart, your soul, like, everything, like just how you do you. And that’s all what you’ve. I guess by doing the work, you’ve allowed that stuff to come out and. And meet the world rather than be held in there by, you know, by your victimhood and by your excuses and your narratives, which I think is really special.

JOSH: No, thank you. I mean, I do have like this posture of, like, would people. I can’t identify things in myself. So when you came along, you kind of spotted some things that you knew that maybe facilitating might be a better option for me because of, you know, things that I can’t see. But I’ve learned to, like, trust other people’s opinions of me.

BEC: Yeah.

JOSH: You know. Yeah. If you can spot something positive in me, I don’t actually see it, but I trust that you see it.

BEC: Yeah.

JOSH: So I’m just gonna go with that. Yeah.

BEC: Well, it’s always. It’s good. It’s good. Yeah.

JOSH: You know, if you’re gonna say, like, so a lot of these things, the way I’ve kind of, like, progressed through getting up to being the programme manager and having all these roles is by people like yourself and other people in my life being like, oh, no, you can do this. This is perfect for you.

BEC: Yeah.

JOSH: Is it like I have.

BEC: Yeah. And you having that belief that they’re telling the truth, but you. But. But I guess it’ll be great when you’ve got that. That belief in you.

JOSH: Yeah. I think it’s building a lot more now. I don’t think I’m necessarily there. I’m still in this kind of, like, posture of, like, I know I can do it.

BEC: Yeah.

JOSH: Because other people can see it. So I know that I can do it. And I’m going to give it a crack.

BEC: Yeah.

JOSH: You know, I’m going to do the best that I can with it. And I’ve grown through that to kind of, you know, build myself up a little bit.

BEC: Yeah.

JOSH: But I think it’s. I think it’s okay to, you know, I like to see myself as. As that teachable person.

BEC: Yeah.

JOSH: And I always want to remain in that sort of space of like, you.

BEC: Always have to be able to learn, otherwise you won’t grow.

JOSH: And that’s kind of how I’ve grown as well, is by being teachable. Yeah. And trusting that I don’t need to have all the answers. And that’s okay. You know?

BEC: And do you think that’s something you got from coming into rehab, that whole narrative of I don’t need to have all the answers.

JOSH: Definitely. Definitely.

BEC: Because it’s not something that we hear, you know, And I sometimes forget that all the stuff that I guess we know when we say and we talk about, your average person out there doesn’t hear these things, which they would be great for people’s personal development. But we’re always talking that way. But it’s not, I guess, common amongst just standard people. And so. Yeah, that’s something you’ve learned from rehab and then carried that forward for your everyday life, which is crazy. Like it’s so impactful.

JOSH: Yeah. I think, and this is, I think it’s great like if you can be an addict and get the opportunity to get clean.

BEC: Yeah.

JOSH: Like it’s really awesome. Yeah.

BEC: It’s almost like you don’t want to do it, but if you are and you get clean, it’s a great experience. Yeah.

JOSH: Because it teaches you so much, you know, and if I look back at my life and how much I’ve destroyed and all that. So to get where I am now, I wouldn’t change anything because I would hate to be like the 67 year old that had, you know, a breakdown in communication with their kids. Got offended.

BEC: Yeah.

JOSH: And. And you know, suddenly they’re alone. Yeah. And I think like if I didn’t burn my life to the ground multiple times and shown myself that I actually need help, you know, I need to people to teach me and to show me that’s so valuable in itself, you know, being able to have that sort.

BEC: Of posture in life, that real element to your life. Like you’re real and it makes it easier to navigate difficult things within your life and I guess accept them rather than, you know, have shitty communication and then lose contact with someone. That’s something you could work through easily, you know, and your kids will as well because that’s what they’re taught. You know, it’s like my kids are taught the same thing. So. Yeah, you learn so much about life that people who have never been in addiction and got the chance to go to rehab don’t get the experience of.

JOSH: Yeah, exactly. So you can, and this is the thing, like my recovery is also shared with the people around me. It’s not just for me. It’s for. It impacts the people like and it also builds up a lot of empathy and compassion for other people. You know, so my kids get to share my recovery with me. They. I get to communicate with them, you know, be assertive but also be like open to feedback, all that sort of stuff with my children.

BEC: Yeah.

JOSH: And like spotting gaps in like my childhood of how like really was closed off and all that other stuff. Like I’ve got them like their own counsellors where they feel comfortable to speak to them. And you know, I think like, especially with indigenous people in particular, like first nations, we’re probably not taught to open up, but at a very young age it’s not really, it definitely wasn’t in my family. They didn’t really have that.

BEC: Yeah.

JOSH: But it’s so valuable in, like growing and being able to let other people in like you.

BEC: You.

JOSH: You need to talk. And I think it’s. That’s one thing I’ve given to my children, is that you don’t need to always talk to dad, but I need you to talk. I need you to speak about what’s going on. For you, I think it’s really important. And my son in particular is the most self aware person, like, I know 100.

BEC: Yeah.

JOSH: So he’ll, like, tell you, like, if he’s like, distressed, you know, they got those colour charts.

BEC: Yeah, yeah.

JOSH: If he’s like, distressed, he’d be like, I’m like, what colour are you? And he’ll be like, I’m all the colours. You know, he’s full dysregulated. Yeah. But then once he starts to come to, he’ll tell you exactly what mood he’s in. And it’s like he’s so introspective and so self aware that it’s like, if I didn’t actually go through what I went through, I probably wouldn’t be able to give.

BEC: There’s no way he’d be doing that. You wouldn’t have. Because where, you know, if you think about all the people you know that haven’t been involved in your experience or don’t know anyone who has been involved in, you know, addiction or recovery, sometimes it’s like you’re talking a different language and you have to. Sometimes you hold yourself back because you’re like, oh, it’s gonna sound really weird if I say that. Yes, it’s a foreign language.

JOSH: Yeah, it really is. And it’s like, I think that most people, they just don’t get to the point of, like, having to really look at this stuff either.

BEC: Yeah. And they just exist. Never experiencing what it’s like to look at yourself and go, okay, yeah, we need to do something about this.

JOSH: And a lot of it’s like, you know, their own ideologies, you know, like what they really perceive as, like, success, all that sort of stuff. It might be financial and that becomes their priorities in life.

BEC: Yeah.

JOSH: But I’ve had to look at my priorities like what’s important to Josh. Yeah. And I. I don’t know if I would have had the opportunity to do that if I didn’t go through that phase of, like, rock bottoms.

BEC: Yeah. Well, your life would be so different now. Who knows where.

JOSH: Where you would be like, you know, probably I definitely wouldn’t have the relationship that I have with the people around me. Yeah, definitely. My children.

BEC: Yeah.

JOSH: Because my priorities might have been something different. Might have been work, it might have been a relationship.

BEC: Yeah.

JOSH: And it’s my. My priorities aren’t that. Yeah, it’s really nice. Yeah.

BEC: Wow. So it’s such a. Incredible. I love the story. I just love it and. Because I guess because I did. You did. I did see things in you and now where you are one of my leadership team and I’m like, I’m really proud of you because you do, you know, amazing work and it can just be something little you’ll say and, you know, and even for the. Even for the rest of the team, like, you might say something to me and I’m like, oh, I better go home and think about that. You know, and it’s just this thing you do. Yeah. You know, but you do. You’ll challenge. And I think that’s a really good skill and it’s something that. Everyone needs a Josh in their life. That’s what they do. Everyone needs a Josh. And I suppose we’re probably coming to an end.

BEC: And I guess from your story and, I mean, I know this, we could talk for hours, you and me, like, we’ll have to. We’re gonna have to do another one. But if there’s people listening now that are either, you know, they’re using or they’re, you know, what would you want people to know? Just about, you know, being an addiction or, you know, going to rehab or getting recovery or behaviour. Anything. What. What is it really. What’s really important to you that you’d like to share?

JOSH: Yeah, I think, like, I guess that. That there is hope and that you were created for a purpose. That you’re not your past, it’s part of who you are. But there is hope. You just have to be willing to step into it. You have to be willing to really look at yourself. And things can change really quickly. Like, they don’t. You don’t need to spend a lifetime trying to pick up the pieces and fix everything. You’ll be surprised at how quick you can get a lot of the things back in your life, but it takes a lot of work and you’ve got to be willing to do that. And you can be trapped in your circumstances. I’m sure you’ve got enough reasons to be trapped in your circumstances.

JOSH: I’m sure you’ve collected enough evidence of hurt and offence over your life to tell yourself that you need to use, but you don’t have to. There’s a way out. And it all starts with you surrendering, trusting that you do have a plan for your life, even though you can’t see it, and really stepping into that. And I truly believe that as humans, like, obviously, you know, I’m a person that puts God first. I try to put God first, and I like to see myself as God is the priority in my life, and everything trickles down from that. So I do believe that everybody is created for a purpose and that God loves everybody equally and the same. It’s all about stepping into that relationship. I think that’s where the biggest change in my life has happened. Knowing that I am loved.

JOSH: And there’s actually nothing that I need to do to get that love. Like, it’s. I just need to receive it. And everything kind of flows out of that place.

BEC: Yeah.

JOSH: You know, but there is hope. You know, I’ve seen the worst of the worst. As much as they think that they’re the worst of the worst, get it, and have really fulfilling lives. And I mean, I know we’re talking on this podcast now, but if you saw me six years ago, you would have said, there’s no way that this person’s gonna amount to anything. But here I am with you in a podcast. I’m hireable, I’m teachable.

BEC: You’re kind, you’re caring.

JOSH: Yeah, I care for people. I love people. I can be loved. All these sort of things, but I’m still growing, you know, And I know that there’s still a lot more stuff that needs to come out, that needs to be a lot more clearing and stuff, and I can still feel myself slip back into these sort of, like, victim mentality type stuff, but I’m quick to catch myself, you know, and bring myself back. But a message for everyone. Just trust and. And step into a relationship and know that you are loved. And, yeah, you can get this perfect.

BEC: Thank you very much, Joshy.

JOSH: Thank you so much.

TOBY VO: You’ve been listening to Beyond the Noise from Arrow Health. For help or more stories, visit arrowhealth.com au.

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