🎙️Beyond the Noise: Episode 1

BEYOND THE NOISE FROM ARROW HEALTH
Podcast Transcript: Healing Together – Addiction, Family and Recovery

Featuring: Toby (Host), Bec (Co-host), and Julie Lieber (Guest)

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TOBY: This is Beyond the Noise from Arrow Health. Real voices, raw stories and the truth about addiction, recovery and life. Hello, everybody, and welcome to another Arrow Health podcast. We’re here today with a brand new topic to talk about. And Bec, what are we calling today’s podcast?

BEC: Today’s podcast is Healing Together Addiction, Family and Recovery. And we’ve got the wonderful Julie Lieber with us for this.

JULIE: Thank you. Pleasure to be here.

BEC: Thank you.

TOBY: Thanks for joining us, Julie. So, Julie, families and addiction. Do you want to… Why don’t we start at the beginning? Should we discuss really your story and what led you to the world of addiction?

JULIE: I’ve been involved with this field very specifically for about… well over 20 years, I would say, working various places and spaces. But my big thing, of course, is you get drawn to this field because you have a living experience in your own family system. So I live with more than one person in my family that had problems with this and I was very grateful that it’s over 10 years ago now that Arrow started. And I knew a lot of the people working at Arrow, so I was very drawn to come and work with some of those people because I knew that they were fundamentally as passionate as what I am about this healing space. Exactly what Bec said.

And, you know, if we come back to now yourself, Toby, and working with you over this period of time and you more or less saying to me, we would love you to do a family program. It was my deep pleasure to do it because what I knew and everything I was studying, so much goes into the person with the problem, but really, you know, it’s a family problem. You know, when addiction takes hold and it takes off, the family’s being drawn into all sorts of chaos. And, you know, the two points I would make on that is sometimes it’s rapid, you know, especially with the drugs that are out there today.

And the family gets, all of a sudden, they’re in denial of the extent of the problem and they get drawn right into it, or they’ve been suffering over a long period of time. So really, I would say they’re suffering. It’s like a war. And they’re suffering the effects really of not just PTSD, but what we call complex post traumatic stress disorder. So I feel like that’s what we’re really addressing with Arrow. You’ve given me licence to be able to go there. And what we’re trying to do is find all the latest research that marries up with what your value system is at Arrow.

BEC: Yeah, sure, Julie. There’s a quote and I don’t know who it’s by, but it says addiction is a family disease one person uses and the whole family gets sick. And we see that all the time in, you know, every client, we see there’s no one free from it. But what I’m wondering is, you know, sometimes we have those instances where the family was sick before the person started using. And, you know, do you reckon that makes a difference to the individual and to the situation? So we’ve got the situation where someone starts using drugs and makes the whole family sick or we’ve got a family that’s sick already that ends up with, you know, someone in that family using. And you know, to me that would make it harder to treat if the family was already sick prior to, because there’s more, you know, the foundation there is already pretty broken.

JULIE: Yes, I agree with that 100%. For me, every family’s individual, I think, because I went on to go further in a master’s of family therapy, what you really understand there, we’re living in an ecosystem, for want of a better word in the family. So you’ve really got to go back and I believe, look at the generational trauma as well. Got to go back and go, well, where’s it all starting from and how does it come through? Because if someone is carrying the common term today would be like there’s a projection, you know, the deep seated trauma that gets projected onto your children. So it could be anxiety, it could be a whole raft of things, but it usually would come out as very controlling behaviour in a family member.

So yes, sometimes I agree with you, someone will pick a drink or a drug up. And I used to say to them when I was counselling at the rehab, so tell me what happened when you picked your first drink or drug up and they didn’t understand that their nervous system was shot and that just floated away all their anxiety. Yeah, I agree with you on that. But then again, it could start out as recreational drugs. It could start… There’s a trauma that you’ve never told anyone about. You’re carrying a secret. But all of these are part of what our team do, I think in uncovering what are the real driving forces below the radar.

BEC: And would you say that’s why, say therapeutic community model that we use up at Arrow, because we emulate the family system and we’re trying to get, you know, clients to navigate that with healthier behaviours? Would you say that’s probably why that’s one of the best ways to manage our clients and help them through this, because the family unit is so significant in their recovery?

JULIE: Yes, yes, I agree with that 100%. You know, the one thing that stands out with Arrow, and I know Toby’s mother and father, like the family, are just so keen to have it family inclusive, because it’s one thing for someone to come from the family system and come into the rehab. And our beautiful therapeutic model, which I believe in, because therapeutic model will cover off many aspects of what we need to deal with. Like we’ve got our medical team, you’ve got… you know, when I go through with families and I say, look, they’ve got their own counsellor and your counsellors just the best, you know, they’re excellent. I’ve been here for so long and watch people come and go. I think the team you’ve assembled now are amazing. But we’ve got great facilitators as well.

Like I mentioned, Josh, I think he’s right up there as one of the best. He’s so intuitive.

BEC: Yeah.

JULIE: With how he understands what’s… And he’s got the words to deal with people. So the team you’ve got. And then we just were talking before about, I believe, the best psychiatrist in Australia at the moment, which are so rare. And this is such an accolade for you, Toby, to have him there because he just completes the team in a whole other way that I’ve ever seen. So we’ve got all that in place there. But then with the family program, we deliver over here, my role is really to try to get to the family. Not everybody wants to work with me. You know, they feel, why do I need to change?

BEC: Yeah.

JULIE: And this is the big question, isn’t it? Because they’ll come into therapeutic model, look at what’s going on. Well, they’ve got to come out back to the old pattern of the family. So I guess at Arrow, the differentiating point for me and what I’m passionate about, and I know you are too, Bec and Toby is, you know what we have in the family program and you back this all the way, Toby. And really different universities are now pointing towards Arrow going, you want to look at family work, look at the family program. So, you know, we really… It’s a structured program that we’re delivering to really help the family see what it is they need to change more in their dialogue towards the person. How do we put down control? How do we start asking questions about where they’re really at, to how they move forward.

BEC: And would you say that those families that don’t want to engage in the program, there’s that fear of, I guess, taking some accountability and really diving into that stuff that they don’t want to look at. The same as, you know, the people in addiction, you know, when they don’t want to come into treatment, they’re avoiding something. They don’t want to take accountability. So it’s the same kind of thing. Not participating is just that lack of, you know, they’re too scared to stand out, stand up and go, okay, I need to look at me. I need to look at the whole situation here, you know.

JULIE: All of us that know this field, you know, you get put in positions where really you can’t go… Like with my situation and because we’re private, you can reveal a little bit. I can refer a little bit like, I have my three boys, all I was saying before they played in bands and they paid them in drugs. Like, it’s horrendous when you get to the point where you think, I’ve got to the end of what I know, I need to open up to someone else. So there’s so much shame and guilt around it all. For families, if I admit this, then what kind of parent am I? You know, who am I really? But I’ll tell you one thing, when we get… Finally, when I get people to come in to do that, there’s the five week online course we do.

More than happy for people to jump in at any place and time. We used to do a closed group, but not anymore. Most everybody, the first thing they say is, oh my God, I’ve been carrying this on my own for so long. So it’s less scary when they come in because they go, this is a…

BEC: Relief because it’s so lonely.

JULIE: That’s a really important point to make.

BEC: I think addiction’s so lonely for everybody involved. Like every, even you could all be in a room together. But every person is lonely because of that, you know, the guilt, the shame. Yeah, that’s really hard to deal with.

JULIE: So we talk about denial for the person using the substance. And you said that before, Bec. Denial in the family is maybe it’ll get better, maybe they’ll grow out of it. Maybe it’s not that bad. You know, that’s the form of denial or just pitting yourself against it, thinking you’re butting heads with it. And something I heard early days for myself, you know, this was someone that was long term in recovery in AA, NA, Al-Anon. He was overeaters under eaters. He said, you’ve got to understand if someone is in active addiction and you’re challenging them, you’re the enemy.

And that was like so much water because I thought, you know, I’m trying to tell them what to do. I’m trying to fix it, you know, and, and I just need someone to come along and tell me, put your hand down and just, you know, back off with that and just be there. You know, that was so my language came out so different because you think you’re driven by fear. Like someone says, you know, do you love them? Yes, of course you love them. But when it’s your own child or it’s your own partner or you’re living in this situation, the underlying driver is fear. Fear they’re going to die. And they do die. You know, there’s so many people dying and you know, it’s quite frightening for people.

And I think a lot of what I find as well is people are trying to hide for a very long period of time as well. But then, you know, this is where in some ways getting into recovery you go, ah, maybe it was the greatest gift because there’s so much growth on the back of it all. You know, you can. If you can manage to find some growth around what you’re doing, it makes you a better person. And I think at the end of the day, I can speak for myself, I think it was my saving grace. I think I grew up completely different because what I learnt about myself and what I learnt about how I wanted to deal with people and situations and family systems, it completely reinvented my value systems. And I’m grateful for that.

BEC: Yeah, I think you know that kind of goes into unconditional love, you know, and I think that’s important for families to think about. When someone that you love is in addiction, you tend to like them less. But you still love them, but you don’t like them anymore. It’s hard. You don’t like what they do and you don’t want, you know, and you’re scared and there’s all that stuff. But that unconditional love, like we’re going to love you no matter what, but we don’t have to be okay with what you’re doing and we can have these boundaries, but we’re still going to love you. And I think when people in addiction feel that unconditional love from their family, they’re more willing to, you know, start to work on what they need to work on because they feel like they’ve got a safety net. Whereas if they feel that judgment and they feel that disappointment all the time.

JULIE: Yes, that’s correct.

BEC: That’s just, you know, that’s just one more thing for them to go, oh well, don’t even worry about it. I’m not doing it. Yeah.

JULIE: And I think what I say to them when they come in, I go, well look, you know, so unconditional love is, is really one of the main pillars of my family program is let’s talk about what that is and how do we get there. Because when I just said, you know, you’re living in an enemy camp, you’re angry, they’re angry, you’re scared, they’re scared. So I think when people come in and work through it and they start to get what unconditional love actually is and why their behaviour doesn’t move them towards that. So they start to understand when we say, are you shouting all the time? Well yeah, but that’s because they don’t listen. They’re tuning you right out. So it’s really taking them on that journey of what we would say would be like healthy communication of how you’re talking to them.

Setting boundaries is really big, you know, I think it’s very hard for people because in a family system and if you have more than one child, you usually treat them all the same, you know, in normal circumstances. But once we come into where somebody’s got addiction going on, you’ve really got to differentiate how you’re treating people because I mean, I know it’s been said, but you can’t give people money, you can’t give them, you can’t fund that lifestyle. You, you know, so what the differentiation is they’re an adult. I mean, we can talk about younger children as well, but you know, for myself, you know, they were all adults, so I just go, you’ve got to do it yourself.

You’ve got to work your life out. And the therapist, I went to a family therapist in those days and he was this South African man and, you know, very direct and I loved his language and he said to me, you’ve got to let your children go and find their own pain. And I was like, what? He said, Julie, you’re absorbing their pain. You’re trying to take away their pain and you’re wrecking yourself. And he was right. So you can hear from our Arrow counsellors and the facilitators in the therapeutic community, they’re asking people about their pain. They’re looking at their trauma. So the old style of dealing with it was, oh, just don’t drink and get to a meeting.

Well, you know, we know that that doesn’t work. We’ve moved on from that. It’s about understanding some of the really underlying factors of what it is that’s making someone escape or what’s making someone feel like they’re, you know, in so much anxiety, they just need to run to something just to get away from it. So the trauma informed bit, and I know that you’re excellent at this, Bec. But what we’re trying to do in the family program is give some support to how do you pick that up from people? Because sometimes they can’t articulate it and we’ve got to pull them out, like you say, pull it out of them. So, you know, without going across and being this interrogative, it’s really trying to come with the soft touch and really understanding what the big things are that are under there.

So I really think it’s a, you know, we’re looking at a generation now with shame, guilt, like enormous shame around mental health and the drive towards how do we get rid of that, especially in males. That’s what we’re dealing with is how do we support better in the family around mental health and addiction and that it’s okay to be vulnerable, even for a male to be okay to cry and that emotion is not a weakness. It’s a strength. So, you know, this is the big shift we’re trying to do. You know, some of it’s generational that we have to deal with because people come from the old way, like a man doesn’t cry, a man’s got to be strong.

You know, like let’s just forget all that, you know, and try to be more psychoeducation around what we’re doing and why we’re doing it and how that is just a load of rubbish, you know, that men should be like that, you know, and the toxic masculinity, this has been a huge shift in, you know, what we are dealing with, but it’s been great to see in our therapeutic community because the guys are allowed to feel, which is excellent. So it’s great.

TOBY: Yeah, I would say even just noticing and naming, like just identifying an emotion, which I think is a very basic skill, but it’s very underutilised because males in particular tend to not look at their emotional life. So it’s simple things like even just recognising and identifying, well how do I even feel right now? And then articulating that. And it is, is a key part of, of communication and improving that communication. Because you know, when I listened to you talk, Julie, about what you do and it, it is, it really seems like the family program is founded on how do we improve the family communication?

JULIE: Yes, 100%. That’s the number one thing because you’ve got to lay down what you’re doing now because if you’re angry all the time or you’re, you know, full of worry and anxiety and those would be some of the driving forces. I’d say some fathers are driven by enormous anger because I don’t understand, you know, and the more you shout, the more it gets quiet. So yes, you’re right. We would say have a family meeting. We invite people to sit down as a family meeting and go, look, we’re not doing what we’re doing anymore. We’re not working like this, you know, and we’ve got, my, our son or our daughter is coming in for treatment, but we need to work a bit differently.

So the psychoeducation around addiction, understanding what it is to have a brain that’s in addiction like a hijacked brain would be like some of the slides I use in the family program, you know. So really looking at how we, you know, show the family in a very simple way that they can understand it, this is what’s going on in the brain. So that starts to eliminate, you know, well why don’t they have more willpower? Why don’t they stop, you know, the disease model, all those sort of things of really going to psychoeducation. You’ve got to educate yourself around what you’re dealing with so that you can actually then move forward into why you can’t engage with them in the same manner.

BEC: And I think one thing that you know, that that brings up for me as well is when people are in treatment, often they have those expectations of that three months, 90 days, they come out, everything’s hunky dory, they’re fixed now and we can all move on as a family and actually that’s when the hard work begins. You know, it’s in that three months they’re safe, you know, they’re getting that routine and they’re getting that education and they’re working on the things they need to work on. But at the end of the day, when they leave that and they’re back out in, you know, real life, that’s actually when the real work begins. And, you know, both for the family and for the person in treatment. And you know, and I think too, when people have those expectations that three months and we’re done, you know, and that’s that.

And I’m back at work and I’m back doing all these things and we’re going to be perfect again. And, you know, I think we all know how hard life is and especially when you’re trying to put in new coping strategies or you’re trying to learn these new things, you’re going to make mistakes and you’re going to, you know, it’s always going to be a work in progress because, you know, we’re humans.

JULIE: For sure. And, you know, I think this is what I like about my program as well is that I will engage with them before the person comes in, if possible. There’s the five week program they do online. Then when their loved one’s in treatment, if they’re a full client, you know, we have the chance then for me to work with them individually. So I’ll be watching what’s going on. So the counsellors all know what they’re allowed to disclose to me. So I’m watching some of the behaviours. So if a father or a mother or a partner are jumping to too many phone calls, jumping to the weekend, like wanting to, you know, so I’m watching how they’re engaging.

And we talk about that. We’ve talked about it in the first five weeks. I said, look, you know, you’ve got to understand they’ve got to be given this time out. So if you keep trying to bring them back into your drama, you know, maybe you’re having issues as parents and one’s saying, well, I think they should do this. But you’ve got to lay that aside now and give your child the respect that they’re in here for three months and this is their big chance. So they’ve got to know that you’re solid behind them and you’ve got to do different, which I try to be strong about in the beginning, you know, when I first meet people, I’ll say, so what are you prepared to do? You know, you know, this is what you want us to do for your child, your son, your partner. What are you prepared to do?

And then you can watch them going, oh, you know, but I’ve tried everything. I go, that’s all you got to stop doing. You’ve got to start doing different. So it’s a big thing just to get them to even understand that. But the beauty of being there afterwards is we can do that aftercare component. So I encourage them to come and stay in the program. We’ll talk about things and then we try to marry up then what they’re doing with what your teams doing, Toby, you know, for the counsellors and the aftercare. So if we’re all working off the same page, much more cohesive. So yeah, I think families need support. They need care. They need understanding and they need someone they feel like they can reach out to where there’s no judgment.

Because that’s the hardest thing. You know, if you’ve got a family member who’s really been causing mayhem in the family, there’s no one to tell. You know, you could tell close friends, but then they get over it. Because when does it end? Because they haven’t got complex PTSD like the family member’s got. So it’s just so important. So I think for me, that’s what I feel like we, we’re doing is providing a real safe space for them.

TOBY: I think the other thing you mentioned as well that really resonated with me is when you first start working with a family, you ask them what are they prepared to do? And I think you will often find people that say they’re prepared to do a lot of things, but when it actually comes to taking action on those things, it’s, that’s where, you know, the families really decide are they ready to make the changes that they need to make. And even through the residential stay, you know, we see it when we call them and we say, look, we’d really like you to engage in a family session, or we’d really like you to do this. And I’d say it’s about half will take us up on it. The others will say, oh, I’m too busy.

JULIE: Yeah, they’re not ready. You know, they’re not, you know, and, and look, I, I’ll never push anybody. You know, I mean, you’ve got to be in a readiness. You’ve got to be ready to change. They’ve got to be ready to change and we’ve got to meet them where they’re at. I can never push because there’d be nothing worse than coming in and. Or doing the program online and going, she made me do this. I’m not doing it, you know, so, but, you know, I think everybody needs to come in on their timing. It’s just that I feel like I’ll be there for them when they’re ready to come. You know, and people are coming now that we worked with, like literally a couple of years ago, and you know, this has been a bit of a bumpy ride for them and now they’re coming back in the program, which is, yeah.

TOBY: Yeah. Look, and I think you’re right that people need time and we can’t push people to do it, but I also think it’s worth mentioning when we have families that don’t engage in the process, the outcomes for those, those clients are not, not anywhere near as good. So, you know, it’s not to say that we can make them do it, but if, you know, if families do, if they do get on the journey with the individual, the outcomes are significantly improved.

JULIE: 100%. I would, you know, from my own experience and say this is like a personal opinion. I mean, if we’ve got someone who’s been a poly drug user for a very long time, there’s this window to work with them, but the family’s got to be behind us. So really, sometimes if I see there’s some resistance happening, I’m strong enough now to even say, look, maybe you need to reconsider, you know, because unless you’re going to meet me halfway and we’re doing this together and we’re all backing this, it’s very difficult. So I feel like, you know, that, you know, we’ve got some families, they’re just so dedicated and I call them the committed families and there’s nothing they wouldn’t do.

And those are the families when you’ve got that commitment and they’re doing a lot of the right things anyway, like, they don’t need me as much. They already understand that, you know, it’s just giving them some tweaking on how to be better communicators. But then you’ve got, yes, some families that aren’t ready and really I don’t think there’d be a good outcome for the, the person at all.

BEC: It’s interesting because, you know, when you talk about ready to change, you know, and people in addiction, often they’re not ready to change. They’re not ready. They don’t know what they have to do. They don’t know, you know, they’re in that precontemplation stage and they’re not wanting to look at that stuff. And it’s interesting that families also can be in that as well. But for slightly different reasons. I think it’s obviously that fear that they have to look at themselves. But I think too, often the way you said like they tried everything. A family that tried everything has usually tried everything at them, like fixing the person rather than themselves. And then when you come in, say, hey, you know, this is what you need to change, they haven’t thought of that.

And that takes them back and they’re like, well, hold on, I’ve done all this stuff. Why am I changing? But they’re failing to recognize that their stuff didn’t work, you know, and this is a different route and, you know, and then, you know, you see those families, like you said, that are committed and you know, they will do whatever because they trust that you know what you’re doing and you’re going to help them navigate this and they have that trust in themselves and in you. But then there’s those families that don’t and their own. Yeah, just their own stuff around, you know, I don’t know, pride or, or I don’t know what it is, but there’s something there that stops them being able to, you know, be vulnerable.

JULIE: Exactly. And I think as well, part of what I’m trying to do in the program is just enable them to have a voice around what the family’s pattern of communication is, because sometimes it’s just the shouting at each other all the time, which doesn’t work. Sometimes it’s the person who goes and hides in their room, you know, like there’s lots of different. So my role is not to kind of go, this is working, this is not. It’s to, like you say, to enable them to see and then when they see it, then they go, oh, wow. Like I’ve had families go, I had no idea I was behaving like that. You know, you know, and then that’s great when they come to that understanding by themselves.

You know, it’s just that way of holding space and unpacking and that’s where the group really works so well as well, because they hear other people in the group, you know, and I always say to them, look, you know, you don’t even have to sort of say much. You can just be in there, but just, you know, you’re part of it and you’re going to hear what other people are dealing with. So you’re on the same page anyway. So the common ground around it being a family disease is absolutely correct. So yeah, it’s, it’s been a pleasure to do this with you, Toby, because.

TOBY: Well, look, and, you know, families have, I would say families are often the forgotten piece, you know, and I think all addiction services, the majority of them very focused on the person that’s using, but really addiction, as we’ve discussed, affects the whole family system. So if, you know, if families aren’t engaged, treated, then often what happens is the clients come back to the same system and they fall back into the same pattern and you end up just doing circles around each other.

JULIE: That’s it. You’re exactly right. Yeah. And you know, they’re coming back to that family system. So if I’ve worked with the family to shift some stuff and I’m engaged with them afterwards, you know, they might call me, you know, they might say, oh, can I talk to you about, you know, Julie, I’m feeling a bit stressed because of this or, you know, and, and if I can normalise some of what’s going on and we’ve talked about healthy communication, I go, okay, so how have you gone with that? What are you doing now with what we talked about? You know, so it’s that sort of it helps me stay engaged with what you’re doing anyway, because I think it’s, for me, it’s a really beautiful privilege because I get to hear the counsellors and the team.

You guys have weekly case reviews. So I sit in that and I’m watching, you know, everybody’s engagement around the client, which is fantastic. So when I’m talking to the family, I can say, look, so and so’s really doing well with this or, you know, they might just need, you know, this is what we would suggest. So I feel like that there’s a link there, you know, and we’ve, we’re all working together and you know, so there’s no surprises for the family, you know, so yeah.

BEC: And I think too, you know, as you said before, we all do this work because we have our own stories around addiction in our families. And I think those stories absolutely inform our practice and inform the way we work and inform our compassion and our, you know, all of that. But I think too, we can’t just work from those places. We have to ensure that we’re, you know, learning the skills and all that other stuff. And I think you do a really good job of that because you obviously have done a lot of study and you really know what you’re talking about and it’s not just off the cuff from your own experience.

You’re really bringing in all that, you know, the research and stuff, which I think is really important because I think as much as, you know, people want to work from that place of, oh, I’ve been there and I’ve experienced it, which gives you I think a really good foundation and a really good understanding. We also need to ensure that we’re not clouding our view because of our own experience and we’re actually working from an evidence based background rather than just what we think or feel, you know.

JULIE: Yeah, and thank you for saying that because look, I think that for me has been really my driver. You know, my lived experience very much grounds me, but like you, I wanted more. I wanted to understand so much more around mental health and addiction, you know, and I went down a path of doing undergraduate degrees and post graduate degrees and masters, you know, and I’m always doing something. I love it because I like learning, but what I’m trying to do is learn as much as I can because I want to give it to people, you know, and that’s sort of what my life is around at the moment is I feel I’ve learned this. How do I, how do I deliver it in a way that people can understand it and pick it up and do something with it because, and you’re right.

So we put a lot of time and effort into how do we deliver this in a really respectful way to families that are going to really understand it, you know, and, and I’ve been very grateful that people are coming back and going, you know, I’m so glad I did that program. You know, I understand now so much better. So.

TOBY: One thing I would say about addiction, recovery and then relapse is obviously we see it a lot. It’s a big part of addiction, right? And I would say a big source of trauma for families. You know, I’ve seen it firsthand. You know, we’ve had clients that have come through and, you know, the families have had so much hope that their son or their daughter or their partner is going to get well. And then they’ve had, you know, a relapse or multiple relapses. I think, you know, the family often can lose that hope and give up on the individual. And, you know, one of the things we try to do at Arrow is instill this hope that, you know, yes, relapse happens.

It’s a part of the journey for many people, but, you know, recovery is still possible. So what do you say to families that have been through, you know, not just one, maybe five, 10, 15 relapses? How do you keep them engaged and hopeful?

JULIE: Yeah, it’s a big topic, isn’t it? I feel that, you know, being part of AA and NA, the 12 step fellowships, what I love about them as well is you get to hear people’s stories. So when I get a family that comes that has been through 15 rehabs and I start talking about what the real drivers are, you know, and I sort of say, well, you know, look, things are changing in rehabs, you know, and we’re looking at really core issues now. Whereas previously they might have been just focused on you just need to stop drinking, you just need to stop using. And people were getting. They were getting the wrong message, you know, and they weren’t dealing with enough about what was, you know, underlying and why they were using in the first place.

So I think when I can sort of say that to families and they start to understand, oh, okay, well, we never dealt with that properly. You know, that was sort of parked. So when they come into the therapeutic model, especially, you know, we have counsellors who are excellent at getting to the bottom of what’s really going on, you know, and they, when they can help people understand. And I think you, you’ve talked about it yourself before, Toby, you know, when there’s a lot of shame and things, they’re not going to want to. It’s like opening up that vulnerability. It’s so scary. So the length of time that someone’s in treatment for, you know, like, I really think the longer you’re there, the better. You know, three months is excellent, but you know, six months.

Because you start to see people really start to open up much more when they’ve had a lot of time there, you know, and they feel safe. But you’re right about relapses. It’s heartbreaking for families, you know, and, you know, there’s a bit of me, you know, again, probably in the early stages where I had to deal with, I had my own trauma around my own boys relapsing. So you sort of understand what it’s like and how painful it is. And then you’re the one trying to pick them up out of the chaos again and try to do something different. But yeah, so I can tell families, you know, look, I’ve been there. This is what it’s like. So let’s just hope that you understand this time we’re doing something different.

We’re working together on it, you know, and I think even for my own family, you know, the big thing was it’s, it has shifted, you know, and I can say, you know, my boys are fine now, which is fabulous, you know, and very grateful for that. But, you know, they are my legacy as well to tell families, look, don’t give up hope, you know. It’s about finding the right rehab. It’s about finding the right counsellor. It’s about. I mean, I sent my boys all over Australia, you know. I mean, it was challenging, very challenging, but you know, you’ve got to stay in the game. You’ve got to, because, you know, like we said, the option is they’re going to probably die or if they don’t die, they’re just going to be living a very unhappy life. And I just think for everyone in the family, they’re just. They need to know somebody cares about them and we’ll keep going and hopefully they can see that we do care and that they can have a better life.

TOBY: Yeah, and I think, you know, recovery isn’t this linear path, you know, it’s not just, you know, someone comes in, does treatment and then they leave and their life is perfect. There will be ups and downs. There will be, you know, setbacks. There will be challenges along the way. But you know, with the right support and the right, you know, treatment, you know, people can and do get well. And I think that’s the message of hope that, you know, we need to really, you know, keep trying to, to share with families.

JULIE: Yeah, that’s right. And you know, look, it’s a. It’s a challenging field, isn’t it? You know, I mean, it is. It’s the most challenging thing that anyone could probably be working in. And you know, we just. I think for all of us that work in it, you’ve got to have a passion about it. You’ve got to really care about the people and you just never know. You know, I say to people, we don’t have a crystal ball. You don’t know what’s going to. Sometimes someone will come in and you just see them and they just seem to get it and they understand and they run with it and they do a great job. Then you’ll have someone else that comes in and you know, they’re just not quite there yet.

You know, they’re not. And you just don’t know. So all you can do, I suppose, is go, well, we’re going to do the best we possibly can while you’re here and you know, when you leave you’ll know where we are if you need to come back, you know, or you need some aftercare. And that’s the beautiful thing about Arrow is we don’t just let people go and go, well, we’ll see you later. No, we stay engaged, you know, and I think that’s the beautiful thing.

BEC: And I think as practitioners and you know, especially because we do such intense work, we do have to recognise that we’re not going to save everyone. And, you know, that’s a really hard lesson to learn and continue to learn, you know, because you are right. Like sometimes there’s someone coming in and you’re thinking, oh, wow, this person’s got it. They’re going to do really well. And maybe they don’t. Or there’s someone else you’re like, oh, I don’t know, you know, like and then they do amazingly well. So you just. You just never know. And I think our job is to do the absolute best that we can. Give the best treatment we can while someone’s with us.

Make sure that when they leave, they know, like you said, they can come back. They’re always going to be part of the arrow community, you know, and always try and have that compassionate non judgmental stance. But also know that we’re. We can’t. We can’t save everyone. And as much as that’s a really hard thing to, you know, to think about. We have to. Otherwise we’re going to burn ourselves out and we’re not going to be able to help the people that we can help. So it’s that balance, isn’t it?

JULIE: It is. And it’s, you know, I often say this to people, you know, and sometimes I’ll say it to. I’ll work with a family and I’ll say, you know, you can have two brothers in the same family, same mother, same father, they’re living in the same situation and one will get it, one won’t. Well, it’s complicated, you know, the brain is complicated, people are complicated. The sector is complicated. It’s hard.

BEC: Do you know, one thing though is we haven’t probably spoken about that I’m passionate about is the 12 step programs, which is still part of our program as well. But you just remind me that they go, you know, AA, NA, all these programs, Al-Anon, all these 12 step programs, they go, it’s a simple program for complicated people.

JULIE: Absolutely.

BEC: I feel like what we try to do at Arrow is take away the complications.

TOBY: Yeah, well, great. Well, thanks Julie for joining us today.

BEC: And I appreciate all the work you do. I appreciate times you’ve saved us when we’ve needed some help. You know, when things are about to go pear shaped and you bring the families in. It’s incredible what you do.

TOBY: Julie, she’s really the goalkeeper of the team.

JULIE: I’ve got analogy on that. I don’t know if it’s good or…

BEC: Kick it to Julie.

JULIE: Yeah, take a mark. But you know, I think come back to probably finish on this. When you ask me if someone’s going to reach out to us and I can get to talk to them and I try to make myself available. I think every single family, their circumstances are important, they’ve got to be taken seriously. It’s not just a generic thing. People have to be heard.

TOBY: Yeah.

JULIE: And often we’re just saying, look, you know, we’re referring, we’re saying, try this or try that. We’re not saying everyone’s going to come into the rehab, but… you know, if we can listen and hear what it is they need in that moment. Because you said it before beautifully, both of you, sometimes people just aren’t ready to change.

BEC: That’s correct. And I think people seeking help need people that are, like you said, listening to the story because a lot of people work from self or from our own opinions and what we think should be right. Whereas I think when you know, and this could be other places, I can’t speak to other places. But I know for us that you’re telling us a story and we’re listening and we’re taking that all in and then we’re going to think about what’s best for you and we’re going to choose to respond and not react. And we’re not considering ourselves in that. We’re considering the people we’re working with and that way we can give a more objective opinion and objective guidance because we’re not going, well, I have an opinion on that. I feel a certain way about that.

I disagree with the way you’ve done that. We’re not doing any of that. We’re just listening to a story and we’re saying, hey, this might just make it a bit easier for you.

JULIE: I think, Toby, you hinted on this before, like the respect. You’ve got to have respect for the answer and the solution is in the family system. It really is. And I heard you say that before, like you just need to be given some air time to be heard. And then what’s got to be applied really is what you’re saying, Bec, is what is the solution they can apply there and then. Not something we think is convoluted over here, which is going to be foreign to them there.

BEC: No, what’s going to work for them in that specific situation, in that specific moment? It doesn’t matter if we haven’t told someone to do that for 10 years. If we think that in that moment we’ve heard that story and gone, wow, this is, you know, this will work for you then let’s go for it.

JULIE: I like that, it’s good. The last thing I want to say that has to be said is then you’ve got your intake team as well. And again, amazing.

BEC: My five, my five star intake team. Yes.

JULIE: Look, it’s got to be said because I mean, Toby, I’ve been lucky enough to be with you almost from the beginning, seeing how you’ve tried to grow all this and you know, there’s steps forwards and back and you know, sometimes we got things right or whatever. But you have to be just being dogged in sort of the way you wanted to move forward and be the best. You wanted… I know you always just wanted Arrow to be the best. And I think you’ve really gone ahead with Bec in leaps and bounds. So kudos to you, Bec.

BEC: I’m so glad we’ve got this on video. I’m gonna run with this for weeks. Thank you. I do appreciate it.

JULIE: I’m still here working. I’ve been over 10 years now, but it’s because this is cohesive now. It’s so working so well. It really is everything.

TOBY: So I think we finally got to that stage where it’s, you know, people come in and they feel that warmth and that, you know, concern and care. It’s like a warm hug for the individuals that come through the door. But behind the scenes it’s a well oiled machine. It’s people know what they’re doing. You know, they come together, they make decisions as a collective group. It’s good. Well, on that note, thank you, Julie.

JULIE: Thank you so much for having me. Thank you. Thank you.

BEC: Loved it.

JULIE: Awesome.

TOBY: All right, well, till next time.

JULIE: Good night or goodbye.

TOBY: Thanks, Julie. You’ve been listening to Beyond the Noise from Arrow Health. For help or more stories, visit arrowhealth.com.au.

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